2nd Afghan War question - which regiments saw most action?

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2nd Afghan War question - which regiments saw most action?

Postby Mark » 11 Sep 2008 22:32

One for the Second Afghan War enthusiasts...

At some point over the next couple of months I will be thinking of obtaining a nice Second Afghan War Medal for my collection. None of the Staffordshire regiments served in this campaign so I must look to another regiment to plug the gap in my collection. In particular I will be looking for a multi-clasp medal - i.e. 2 or more.

So the question is what regiment? I want one to a 'line-regiment' and preferably an infantry regiment. So which infantry regiments played a major part in the war and saw a lot of action?

Maiwand casualties / survivors will be somewhat more than I want to pay!

Over to you guys.

Mark :)
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby kaiser » 12 Sep 2008 19:25

Hi Mark you couldnt go wrong with the 72nd or 92nd Foot, Kabul and Kandahar so entitled to the star! 72nd also entitled to Peiwar Kotal and Charasia.

Andrew
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Garen » 13 Sep 2008 19:29

I guess it's easy to list the British foot regiments that (generally) earned more than one clasp... 60th, 67th, 72nd and 92nd. You're safe as far as the expense of a Maiwand man goes as they got only one clasp, if that.

Some regiments had a very interesting time of it without getting any clasps, mainly those that saw service in the Khyber region, where they were always being harried by tribesmen and sent out on various expeditions. The trouble with these is that it wasn't always the entire regiment, so you could pick up a 14th Foot medal (no clasp) with the possibility the man was at Mazina, but then again... he may not have been. Same, for instance, with a man from the 12th - was he at Kam Dakka or not?
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Mark » 13 Sep 2008 20:43

Examples to the 60th Foot seem interesting - any advice on this regiment?

Mark
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Garen » 13 Sep 2008 20:56

The 60th had a very interesting time of it... they're one of the few 'there and back again' regiments (as I call them :-)) - they marched with Stewart from Kandahar to Kabul, and then with Roberts from Kabul to Kandahar.

Actions included Kushab (one company), Ahmed Khel (clasp), Urzu, and Kandahar - both 31 Aug reconnaissance and 1 Sep battle (clasp). They were also involved in the Marri expedition after leaving Kandahar.

If you can find a medal to a man who was in G Company - they had the thickest action at Ahmed Khel, and were also the company involved in Kushab en-route to Kandahar in Jan 1879, as well as being the first of the 60th to Kabul, accompanying Stewart there, while the rest stayed temporarily in the Logar Valley.
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby maiwander » 14 Sep 2008 10:34

Mark

I think that Garen has more or less covered the question very well - he is well up on this stuff ain't he!

I know that you thought that a 66th Foot Maiwand Survivor may be more that you wish to pay but there is such a medal up for auction at Dix Noonan Webb in London on Friday 25 September 2008. The estimate is reasonable, but I would think it may go for more. Having said that it may be expensive, some medals to the 72nd and 92nd have up to 3 or 4 bars and cost in excess of £400+ in some catalogues.

Being a pauper, you have a clear run to put a bid in for the 66th medal...one day, one day my lottery ticket will come up!!


Auction Date: 25/9/2008

Category: SINGLE CAMPAIGN MEDALS

Lot No: 1161

Description: Afghanistan 1878-80, 1 clasp, Kandahar (1669 Pte. J. Cawte, 66th Foot) slight edge bruise, very fine £250-300

Estimate: £250-£300


Richard
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With friends and kinsmen near them.
Not withered thus on a foreign strand,
With no thought, save heaven to cheer them.
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Mark » 14 Sep 2008 13:09

Cheers guys for your help. I have just bought a First World War DCM group to the North Staffords so I will have a little more time (while my bank balance recovers) to ponder what regiment to look out for as regards the Afghan Medal. However, my thoughts are one to the 60th Foot and preferably one with a Kabul to Khandahar Star - I don't ask for much do I!?

Mark
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Maiwand Lion » 19 Sep 2008 15:35

Mark,

What makes you think that J. Cawte was a survivor of Maiwand?

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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Mark » 19 Sep 2008 16:04

Maiwand Lion wrote:Mark,

What makes you think that J. Cawte was a survivor of Maiwand?

Regards
Hutch


Hi Hutch

I don't, I think you mean Richard!?

Mark :)
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Maiwand Lion » 19 Sep 2008 16:27

Sorry Mark, I must get some new glasses.

Richard, same question to you.

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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby maiwander » 19 Sep 2008 18:16

Hi Hutch

Basically, the odds are against him not being a survivor.

Firstly, he is not on the medal roll for A or E Coys who were detached at Khelat-i-Gahizi at the time of the battle.
Secondly, he is not listed as being wounded, in hospital or duty in fort on 1 September 1880 (being the Battle of Kandahar).
Thirdly, almost all of the survivors of Maiwand were attached to Col.Daubeney's Field Force for the battle of Kandahr - only a few remained behind.
Fourthly, there were only a handful of men who remained behind at Kandahar under the command of Lt. Edwards who were on the sick list.


I have to admit that there is not known roll of survivors or of those who remained behind at Kandahar. However, I (and others) have done quite a bit of research into the question of making up a survivors list from the medal roll using information contained therein and from other sources.

I stand to be corrected of course. It could be said that the above is not substanial enough to place Cawte as a survivor. It must be remembered that almost all the regimental documentation was lost on the field of battle and never recovered. In addition other than the muster rolls after July 1880 and the medal roll, little else remains of any documentation in the confusion of the time. I would stick my neck out and say there is 90% chance of Cawte being a survivor - it is up to the individual to accept the odds. Of course his service papers (if they are available, and not all survivors papers are as I know) may throw up some more information on the matter.

If you are aware of something that I am not, then I would be most interested to hear - the jury is still out on much this particular field of research. I hope this helps and answers your question Hutch. :D

Richard
(Maiwander)
They should have died in their own loved land.
With friends and kinsmen near them.
Not withered thus on a foreign strand,
With no thought, save heaven to cheer them.
Private H. Cooper 1st Batt. 5th Northumberland Fusiliers 1880
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Margaret » 22 Nov 2008 03:05

This is off the topic of medals but concerns the Second Afghan War - You are all experts in this field and I hope I am posting to the correct discussion. Is there a list of Irish Regiments which served in the Second Afghan War? My Great Great Uncle, first name unknown, last name Mackle from County Derry, Ireland served in British Army and died in India. He was probably born shortly after 1860 so that is why I am thinking possibly the Second Afghan War. I have always assumed he probably joined the Royal Enniskillen Fusiliers since it was close to County Derry.

Thank you for any suggestions you might have,
Margaret
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Mark » 22 Nov 2008 12:16

Margaret wrote:This is off the topic of medals but concerns the Second Afghan War - You are all experts in this field and I hope I am posting to the correct discussion. Is there a list of Irish Regiments which served in the Second Afghan War? My Great Great Uncle, first name unknown, last name Mackle from County Derry, Ireland served in British Army and died in India. He was probably born shortly after 1860 so that is why I am thinking possibly the Second Afghan War. I have always assumed he probably joined the Royal Enniskillen Fusiliers since it was close to County Derry.

Thank you for any suggestions you might have,
Margaret


Margaret

A warm welcome to the forum, glad to have you aboard.

I might be wrong, and if I am I'm sure Garen or Richard will correct me on this, but I believe the only irish regiment that took part in the Second-Afghan War was the 18th Regiment of Foot (Royal Irish).

However you must remember that at this time a very considerable chunk of the British Army was made up of Irish men. I have a number of Victorian campaign medals to the Staffordshire regiments and quite a few of the recipients were Irish even though the regiments themselves were not actually Irish.

Mark
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby maiwander » 22 Nov 2008 13:37

Hi Margaret

Welcome to the Forum, hope you will enjoy your stay with us.

I have to agree with Mark that there was, as far as I am aware, only one Irish Regiment at Afghanistan during 1878-80 that being the Royal Irish Regiment.

I have looked through the Medal Roll (WO 100/52) for the regiment and I have drawn a blank on the name Mackle. There are one or two names similar and I was wondering if you have the correct spelling - I expect you have of course. So from this it would seem that your Great Great Uncle was not at Afghanistan. Sorry to have been the bearer of this news and so close this avenue of possible research.

Garen may of course come up with something more, he is a surprising chappy who has access to far more info than I have - so if he does I stand corrected.

Maybe some other Forum members can extend the search more for you. Above all, do not give up!

Richard
They should have died in their own loved land.
With friends and kinsmen near them.
Not withered thus on a foreign strand,
With no thought, save heaven to cheer them.
Private H. Cooper 1st Batt. 5th Northumberland Fusiliers 1880
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Re: Second Afghan War Question

Postby Liz » 23 Nov 2008 11:53

Hi Margaret

Another warm welcome. It's great you are considering the Afghan War possibility - how many people these days even know that there was one? - and you've certainly come to the right place, we have lots of 2nd Afghan War enthusiasts on board. (Not me, I should add, the 1st Afghan War is more my thing.)

If at first you don't succeed with the 2nd Afghan War, I'd still encourage you to post what info you have about your gg-uncle Mackle in the Researching Individual Soldiers and Sailors forum here: http://www.victorianwars.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=62.

Details such as date and place of birth, marriage and death would be great and it's surprising how often these relatively domestic details can help us narrow down what regiment/s a man may have served in. Cheers,


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