Three Unidentified Photos

[alysania]

Hello! The family recently found an old photo album amongst my grandfather's things after he passed away. None of us knew that this album existed, and none of the photos are labelled, making identification nearly impossible. I know that a relative (via records I've found online) served in the British Army (North West Frontier of India 1897-98 and Tirah 1897-98) and was discharged in 1904. I'm looking to figure out which one of these photos is him, and, if possible, any information on the uniforms that might lead me to figure out who the unidentified individuals are. In case you're interested in checking out the whole album, it's posted online - http://www.sheetar.com/2011/11/17/red-velvet-victorian-photo-album/#more-4263.

1. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0006.jpg - Taken in Plymouth, UK
2. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0067.jpg - Taken in Dublin
3. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0035.jpg - No marking on front or back of the photo indicating where this was taken. The majority of this part of the family was from Lawhitton, Cornwall, UK, if that helps.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Frogsmile]

Hello! The family recently found an old photo album amongst my grandfather's things after he passed away. None of us knew that this album existed, and none of the photos are labelled, making identification nearly impossible. I know that a relative (via records I've found online) served in the British Army (North West Frontier of India 1897-98 and Tirah 1897-98) and was discharged in 1904. I'm looking to figure out which one of these photos is him, and, if possible, any information on the uniforms that might lead me to figure out who the unidentified individuals are. In case you're interested in checking out the whole album, it's posted online - http://www.sheetar.com/2011/11/17/red-velvet-victorian-photo-album/#more-4263.

1. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0006.jpg - Taken in Plymouth, UK
2. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0067.jpg - Taken in Dublin
3. http://www.sheetar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Scan0035.jpg - No marking on front or back of the photo indicating where this was taken. The majority of this part of the family was from Lawhitton, Cornwall, UK, if that helps.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Photo 1 shows a Royal Navy rating around the turn of the sentry. Without his cap and tally it is not possible to know his ship other than that it was part of the Plymouth division of the fleet (i.e. his ship was based at Plymouth).

Photo 2 shows an infantry soldier in an English or Welsh (white collar and cuffs) regiment between 1881 and 1897, when the glengarry cap he is wearing was replaced. He is wearing a 7-button home service frock with collar badges and embroidered shoulder titles. A powerful magnifier might make it possible to read these if you have the original print. A firm date would make it possible to narrow down the units in Dublin at that time. In July 1896 three units, the 1st Battalions of the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) Regiment, Durham Light Infantry and Oxfordshire Light Infantry, were all based in Dublin, but that is a very narrow timespan. The shape of the shoulder titles in this photo are closest to those of the Sherwood Foresters.

Photo 3 shows the same soldier in a 5 button India Pattern Frock and with Foreign Service white helmet,so he is almost certainly in India at the time the photo was taken. Again the regiment is English or Welsh and quite likely the same unit as in the Dublin photo. Collar badges and embroidered shoulder titles are present and a magnifier on the original print should enable a unit ID. He is also wearing a single good conduct badge (stripe on left forearm), indicating between 2 and 3 years of blemish free service. In 1897 the 2nd Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters was based in Bareilly, India and it seems possible that the soldier shown served initially with the 1st Battalion and then moved to the 2nd Battalion. It was quite common for soldiers to be trained in the battalion based at home and then moved as part of a draft of reinforcements to the battalion based overseas. This would also fit with the good conduct badge.

Further corroboration is given by the fact that the 2nd Battalion Sherwood Foresters saw active service in North West Frontier Operations 1897-98 and were entitled to the India Medal 1895 and two clasps: Punjab Frontier 1897-98 and Tirah 1897-98.
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britis ... giment.htm

[crimea1854]

Hi

Re Photo 1 you could do a general search of the seamens service records available on the National Archives website, just using known family surnames to see if this returns any likely candidates. You should note that the 'date' column are dates of birth.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=15&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

Martin

[alysania]

This is incredible! And such a quick response! Thank you!

Okay, I went back and looked at the service record for Harry Battin (via findmypast.co.uk). I'll admit that I don't know much about what I'm looking at in terms of the form, but the information you provided helped me sort this out. The form is a Short Service form, and the service record images all state that they're copyrighted, so while I'd love to post them here, it doesn't sound like that's a good idea.
Name: Harry Battin
Corps: D of Corn's L I (Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry is listed below)
Joined at: Bodmin
on: 1 October 1892

On the third page, Statement of Services, it lists "D" under "Battn. or Depot) for where he attested, and then 1st Battalion for 1894 (with a note about him being granted a P G.C. which I'm assuming is the good conduct badge), and also 1st Battalion in 1898 (with a note that he was granted something illegible). There's also a note below these saying, "Elected to come under Regulations governing issue of Messing Allowance, in accordance with provisions of para. 5, Army Order 65 of 1898.

On the Military History section it lists the following:
Home: 1 Oct 1892 to 31 Jan 1894
India: 1 Feb 1894 to 21 Dec 1900
Ceylon: 22 Dec 1900 to 29 Dec 1902
Home: 30 Dec 1902 to 30 Sep 1904

Does all of this fit with the photos? Or am I looking at someone else? I found a brief history via wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Co ... t_Infantry) that seems to match the locations to his particular service record.
I can't seem to read anything from the shoulders with magnification - they're all old cabinet cards and not exactly top quality unfortunately.

Oh, regarding #1, I found another photo that might help with the identification of the ship - I think this is the same guy. I can only make out the end of the name "..ivid" ?? Ring any bells? The photo is likely from July/August of 1884 - the five girls are still alive (Dinah died in November of that year) and their mother isn't present - she passed away in July 1884. Of the three remaining boys, only two are in the photograph.

DSC_3322_01 by alysania, on Flickr

[Frogsmile]

This is incredible! And such a quick response! Thank you!

Okay, I went back and looked at the service record for Harry Battin (via findmypast.co.uk). I'll admit that I don't know much about what I'm looking at in terms of the form, but the information you provided helped me sort this out. The form is a Short Service form, and the service record images all state that they're copyrighted, so while I'd love to post them here, it doesn't sound like that's a good idea.
Name: Harry Battin
Corps: D of Corn's L I (Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry is listed below)
Joined at: Bodmin
on: 1 October 1892

On the third page, Statement of Services, it lists "D" under "Battn. or Depot) for where he attested, and then 1st Battalion for 1894 (with a note about him being granted a P G.C. which I'm assuming is the good conduct badge), and also 1st Battalion in 1898 (with a note that he was granted something illegible). There's also a note below these saying, "Elected to come under Regulations governing issue of Messing Allowance, in accordance with provisions of para. 5, Army Order 65 of 1898.

On the Military History section it lists the following:
Home: 1 Oct 1892 to 31 Jan 1894
India: 1 Feb 1894 to 21 Dec 1900
Ceylon: 22 Dec 1900 to 29 Dec 1902
Home: 30 Dec 1902 to 30 Sep 1904

Does all of this fit with the photos? Or am I looking at someone else? I found a brief history via wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Co ... t_Infantry) that seems to match the locations to his particular service record.
I can't seem to read anything from the shoulders with magnification - they're all old cabinet cards and not exactly top quality unfortunately.

That extra information puts us on the right track and in 1892 and 1893 the 2nd Battalion DCLI were in Dublin, Ireland and the 1st Battalion in Chakrarta, India, where they stayed until moving to Ceylon and then home to Devonport by 1902, with the 2nd Battalion replacing them overseas and deploying to the 2nd Anglo/Boer War in South Africa. the 1st Battalion DCLI also saw active service in North West Frontier Operations 1897-98 and were entitled to the India Medal 1895 and three clasps: Relief of Chitral 1895, Punjab Frontier 1897-98 and Tirah 1897-98. 907 Medals were issued to the regiment: http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britis ... fantry.htm

You can read more about the DCLI here: http://www.britisharmedforces.org/li_pa ... _books.htm

Chakrarta or Chakrata, was a cantonment of the British Indian Army, and established in 1866 by Colonel Hume of the 55th Regiment, British Indian Army, and the troops and officers first occupied the cantonment in April 1869. In 1901, Chakrata Tahsil was part of the Dehradun district, of the United Provinces.

http://cbchakrata.org/history.html

The comment "Elected to come under Regulations governing issue of Messing Allowance, in accordance with provisions of para. 5, Army Order 65 of 1898 concerns a previous policy whereby each soldier used to have a sum taken from each days pay and kept until their discharge when it was then given to them as a lump sum to help them settle into civilian life. In 1898 this deduction was ceased and a soldier could either, have the daily deduction added back to his pay, or he could use it to offset the cost of his rations (daily messing) by the same amount. In this case he has elected to do the latter, which seems to be something that a majority of soldiers did. He still received a lump sum on completion of service but it was substantially less.

The original HMS Vivid was a wood paddle packet launched in 1848 and sold in 1894. Later HMS Vivid was the Navy barracks at Devonport. It was commissioned in 1890, and operated as a training unit until 1914. The base was renamed HMS Drake in 1934. A number of ships were renamed HMS Vivid whilst serving as depot ships for the base: HMS Vivid was the original depot ship between 1892 and 1912. There are images of HMS Vivid here:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=HMS+Vi ... 20&bih=966 "Devonport" is the part of Plymouth where the Navy base is located.

[alysania]

Frogsmile, you are an absolute treasure. This fills in so much information in my family tree, and it's really interesting to find all of this out and match the photos to a name. I really can't even begin to express how much you've helped me!

HMS Vivid! That would fit the lettering on his cap perfectly. I still can't find records that match this unknown sailor - he's one of four sons, and now that we've got Harry down, it's three. One of the three died at age 19 before his mother (if you look in the background of that last photo, you can see the gravestones - it has to be July 1884), leaving me with a choice of two. I've searched through the national archives documents and findmypast.co.uk and haven't been able to find a record. Is there anywhere else I might be able to look to confirm the identity of that man?

[crimea1854]

If you believe that the man in picture 1 can be narrowed down to two brothers, can you now give their names and approximate dates and places of birth?

Martin

[Frogsmile]

Frogsmile, you are an absolute treasure. This fills in so much information in my family tree, and it's really interesting to find all of this out and match the photos to a name. I really can't even begin to express how much you've helped me!

HMS Vivid! That would fit the lettering on his cap perfectly. I still can't find records that match this unknown sailor - he's one of four sons, and now that we've got Harry down, it's three. One of the three died at age 19 before his mother (if you look in the background of that last photo, you can see the gravestones - it has to be July 1884), leaving me with a choice of two. I've searched through the national archives documents and findmypast.co.uk and haven't been able to find a record. Is there anywhere else I might be able to look to confirm the identity of that man?

I cannot help you with genealogy as I do not have the knowledge or facilities but other forum members such as Martin do and will perhaps be able to assist you.

HMS Vivid was a shore base used for training and drafting and so with a large and very transitory establishment of manpower, moving to and from ships on commission and decommision. I know next to nothing about tracing naval records, but there will be others here who can help you.

[alysania]

I cannot help you with genealogy as I do not have the knowledge or facilities but other forum members such as Martin do and will perhaps be able to assist you.

You've helped so much already, that's absolutely fine! It's kind of a long shot anyway.

If you believe that the man in picture 1 can be narrowed down to two brothers, can you now give their names and approximate dates and places of birth?

Alfred John Battin, born 6 Jun 1858 at Lawhitton, Cornwall. He married Mary Jane James in Tiverton, Bermuda, and was a blacksmith.
George Battin, born 22 Aug 1862 at Lawhitton, Cornwall. I don't have much more on him that I'm 100% positive on yet.

The photo of the group above was taken about July/August 1884, so his service with the HMS Vivid was around that time. For more background information, if this helps, their mother was Mary Jane Harris (1834 - 12 July 1884) and their father was George Battin (24 Feb 1835 - 30 Aug 1909). The military records seem to be scattered and hard to locate, so any help you can provide (even if it's directing me to somewhere I haven't looked yet) would be excellent!

[crimea1854]

I've tried every route I can think of to identify your man but have got nowhere. Since he was in th Navy after 1873 there should be a service record for him. I'm no expert on ladies fashion, as my wife tells me, but I did wonder if perhaps this were a later generation?

Martin

[Frogsmile]

I've tried every route I can think of to identify your man but have got nowhere. Since he was in th Navy after 1873 there should be a service record for him. I'm no expert on ladies fashion, as my wife tells me, but I did wonder if perhaps this were a later generation?

Martin

I agree about the period Martin, I think the date is more likely 1894 than 1884. Also HMS Vivid had not begun as a Shore Base until 1890 and the cap tally seems pretty definitive.

A further bit of information that might be of use is that 'HMS Vivid I' was specifically a Signals Shore Establishment with a remit to train signallers for the fleet so it seems that our man was a trainee signaller. There was also a 'HMS Vivid II' which was an Accounting Base (both of these within Devonport Dockyard).

It seems that at that time there had hitherto been no Royal Navy shore establishments, so there was no procedure for naming them, which meant that they had to take the names of existing naval vessels against which their costs could be accounted. For the Royal Naval Barracks at Devonport that meant adopting the name of the Commander-in-Chief's official yacht, HMS "Vivid".

There is an interesting history about the base here: http://www.plymouthdata.info/Royal%20Na ... rracks.htm

[alysania]

I figured I'd follow up since I've worked out a little more information. Going with another theory, that it's a wedding photo, I was thinking the date was 1898 for Mary Jane Battin's marriage to John Samuel Creber. Two of her sisters (Bessie & Kate) are definitely in the photo, and John had four sisters, so the other gals could be his sisters. George Battin is definitely seated in the center and he died in 1909, so the date would have to be earlier than that, which makes the 1898 wedding make sense.

John Samuel Creber also had two brothers, one who was in the navy. Theophilus George Creber listed his occupation as "Master at Arms" on the 1891 census, living at Devonport, and by 1911 he lists himself as retired Navy. I think I have my man!

Thank you both, again, for all of your help!

[crimea1854]

Thanks for coming back with an update. So often one answers a question on this, or other sites, and then never hears the outcome, so it's really good to get this sort of feedback, and to know that in some small way we have helped.

If you wanted to follow up on Theopilus's naval service, his record is here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=6861807&queryType=1&resultcount=51

Martin

[Frogsmile]

I figured I'd follow up since I've worked out a little more information. Going with another theory, that it's a wedding photo, I was thinking the date was 1898 for Mary Jane Battin's marriage to John Samuel Creber. Two of her sisters (Bessie & Kate) are definitely in the photo, and John had four sisters, so the other gals could be his sisters. George Battin is definitely seated in the center and he died in 1909, so the date would have to be earlier than that, which makes the 1898 wedding make sense.

John Samuel Creber also had two brothers, one who was in the navy. Theophilus George Creber listed his occupation as "Master at Arms" on the 1891 census, living at Devonport, and by 1911 he lists himself as retired Navy. I think I have my man!

Thank you both, again, for all of your help!

I would like to endorse Martin's comments and thank you for letting us know the outcome. I too think you most likely have your man, the date and circumstances are a far closer match to what I have seen in terms of uniform and historical background.

Master-at-Arms is a senior non-commissioned officer responsible for law and order amongst the other ranks (in naval parlance -'ratings'). In other words, he is the ship's senior domestic 'policeman'. His role then, as now, is keeping order on the lower decks and rounding up the drunks ashore.

If you are interested to learn more about his life at that time there is an excellent online resource here:
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Index.html

[alysania]

I know the thread is old, but I have another update! A distant cousin got in touch, having found my family tree online, and forwarded me another photo of Harry Battin (the man from photos # 2 and 3 from the first post). In this new photo, he has a new stripe on his sleeve and a medal. Based on the fact that this was taken in India (the photographer is listed at the bottom), and from his service record which shows that he received the India Medal in 1895, I know it was taken after 1895. I was just curious about the stripes on his sleeve as it might help to better date the photo.

This cousin also had all of the names for the folks in the wedding photo above as well and verified the identity of the sailor - it was right! Thanks again

HarryBattinIndia-s.jpg (162.12 KiB) Viewed 1221 times