George Ingram Bangalore Uniform Information Please

[hysterysleuth]

Cropped from family photo of George Ingram in Bangalore, India circa 1908

George Ingram, son of Wm Ingram India circa 1908 copy2.jpg (102.18 KiB) Viewed 749 times

Cropped from family photo of George Ingram in Bangalore, India circa 1908

George Ingram, son of Wm Ingram India circa 1908 copy2.jpg (102.18 KiB) Viewed 749 times

Believe this photo is of George Ingram R.E 2nd Q. O. Sappers and Miners.
Is this when he was a sergeant? What does the braid on shoulders mean? Any other details we can get from the uniform?
Regimental info I gave is from a memorial on his parents' family stone in Glasgow area. I think the initials RE mean Royal Engineers and that QO is Queen's Own -- Sappers and Miners. When if ever might they have been in Surrey, England? He was from Scotland. Trying to trace his story.
Anyone have a photo of his battalion?
George died of typhoid in Dec 1910 at sea enroute home. I'd love to post whole family photo, but have not figured how to reduce pixels. That photo includes wife, Elizabeth May Chanpion, 2 children (of 3), a female Indian friend and/or servant, and a dog.

[hysterysleuth]

Here is the family photo.
Children were William George Ingram b 1905, Arthur Charles Ingram b 1906, and Annie Wheeler Ingram b 1909?. One is missing, but they were all alive in 1911 and the 'baby' here looks like a girl.

[FROGSMILE]

He is wearing a typical, 5-button blue 'undress' (i.e. working dress) frock with two chest pockets. It was made of dark blue serge and had yellow twisted cord shoulder straps. The buttons were small and made of brass and I am not sure that they had any regimental insignia on them at all. I have seen the same apparently plain small buttons on the hot weather khaki drill uniform. Any badge of rank would have been worn on the right upper arm that unfortunately is out of sight. No collar badges were worn by RE on this uniform. The trousers too were dark blue and had a wide red stripe down the outer seam.

Your interpretation of his unit is correct and British Royal Engineers often completed tours of duty with the Indian Sappers and Miners.

The Indian servant is the families Aaya (nanny), and paid to look after the children. One of a small retinue of servants that even a soldier of low rank could afford (and was often morally obligated to employ in support of the local economy and to maintain appearances).

[hysterysleuth]

Dear Frogsmile,
Thank you for bringing colour to the old black & white! I went to the original and did a zoom. I believe you are correct that the buttons are plain. Wish I could get the baby to wriggle, so we could see dad's right sleeve.

[FROGSMILE]

Dear Frogsmile,
Thank you for bringing colour to the old black & white! I went to the original and did a zoom. I believe you are correct that the buttons are plain. Wish I could get the baby to wriggle, so we could see dad's right chest.

I am glad to be of help. I enclose some images of soldiers from the same period in similar frocks so that you can see better how the uniform appeared.

[hysterysleuth]

Thank you! Do you suppose they really used such stick furniture? I presume that the ones in these photos are photographers' props.

[Maureene]

The following transcriptions (not complete records) are available on the FamilySearch website

name: William George Ingram
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 17 Feb 1905
baptism/christening place: Secunderabad, Madras, India
birth date: 17 Jan 1905
father's name: George Ingram
mother's name: Elizabeth May
indexing project (batch) number: C00072-1
system origin: India-EASy
source film number: 527469

name: Arthur Charles
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 25 Oct 1906
baptism/christening place: Bangalore, Madras, India
birth date: 08 Oct 1906
father's name: George Ingram
mother's name: Elizabeth May
indexing project (batch) number: C00072-4
system origin: India-EASy
source film number: 463302

name: Annia Wheeler Ingram
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 14 Jan 1909
baptism/christening place: Secunderabad, Madras, India
birth date: 27 Dec 1908
father's name: George Ingram
mother's name: Elizabeth May
indexing project (batch) number: C00072-8
system origin: India-EASy
source film number: 527474


If you obtain a copy of the baptismal records, most likely there would be details of his regiment.

For details of the website, and how to obtain copies of the records see the FIBIS Fibiwiki Beginners’ Guide, including “Family Search Centres”. Online images of the records should be available at the end of 2012.

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=B ... s%27_Guide
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=F ... ch_Centres

Cheers
Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you! Do you suppose they really used such stick furniture? I presume that the ones in these photos are photographers' props.

No, not in India. They are indeed props I think and the photo was in any case taken in the Middle East. The first photo in Britain. I used them just to give you a better view of the men's frocks. Most furniture in India would either have been imported from Britain or English styles copied by local carpenters using native Indian wood such as sheesham.

[hysterysleuth]

Here is another picture of Sgt George Ingram in Balgalore circa 1908. It is a closer photo of just him and in better condition. Zooming in, the buttons seem to have insignia on them.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is another picture of Sgt George Ingram in Balgalore circa 1908. It is a closer photo of just him and in better condition. Zooming in, the buttons seem to have insignia on them.

The buttons are the small variant of the 'medium size' and of regimental pattern, and this time we can also see his rank, which is confirmed as a Sergeant RE with 3 stripes surmounted by a plain grenade all in bullion wire. The frock is of the Indian Pattern Blue Serge, as in the other photos, and was worn in that form, i.e. with gilt wire (for Sgts) twisted cord shoulder straps, by both RE and Royal Artillery.

The insignia on the button appears to be the crown over garter enclosing VRI (Victoria Regina Imperatrix - 'Victoria Queen Empress'). It may also have had the regimental title surrounding as shown, but I cannot quite see well enough to be sure and it may only be present on larger buttons. Alternatively, it might be the standard British RE button that I also enclose, and on balance, I think that is the more likely for a British NCO.

Note the image of a native officer in full dress and you can see the colour and general style of what George would have worn in his own full dress. He would have worn a white helmet instead of a turban of course.

[hysterysleuth]

Lookee! lookee! See what else this friend had! ... and picture me jumping up and down!
This was really George's patch!

Thank you SO much, Frogsmile, for posting the photos of dress uniform.
Among the other clues about George, I found that:
George must have entered the service on or about 15 February 1900.
He was at Brompton Barracks in the March 1901 census and was a Lance Corporal, so I super appreciate the photo of a Lance Corporal that you posted previously.
Not sure of his rank when he married in 1903, so is it either lance corporal or sergeant, or was there something in between?

Regarding the 1901 census- Do you suppose the number of men listed as sappers beneath each lance corporal's entry in the census has anything to do with the command configuration? There is a 2nd Corporal on the page above, with another lance corporal directly beneath, followed by sappers.

George went to India about February/March 1903. He was in Secunderabad in 1905 and in Bangalore after that. Wish I could get to that museum that is now in the Brompton Barracks.
It is so exciting to piece together details of this man's life. I thank you for your part in the adventure.

[crimea1854]

His name is recorded on the following monument, although the date of death differs from the one you have:

http://www.bangalorewalla.com/footsoldier_2000/42.htm

Martin

[FROGSMILE]

Lookee! lookee! See what else this friend had! ... and picture me jumping up and down!
This was really George's patch!

Thank you SO much, Frogsmile, for posting the photos of dress uniform.
Among the other clues about George, I found that:
George must have entered the service on or about 15 February 1900.
He was at Brompton Barracks in the March 1901 census and was a Lance Corporal, so I super appreciate the photo of a Lance Corporal that you posted previously.
Not sure of his rank when he married in 1903, so is it either lance corporal or sergeant, or was there something in between?

Regarding the 1901 census- Do you suppose the number of men listed as sappers beneath each lance corporal's entry in the census has anything to do with the command configuration? There is a 2nd Corporal on the page above, with another lance corporal directly beneath, followed by sappers.

George went to India about February/March 1903. He was in Secunderabad in 1905 and in Bangalore after that. Wish I could get to that museum that is now in the Brompton Barracks.
It is so exciting to piece together details of this man's life. I thank you for your part in the adventure.

Yes, the rank structure at that time was Sapper, Lance corporal (one stripe but not substantive), 2nd Corporal (also one stripe), Corporal (two stripes), Sergeant (three stripes).

[FROGSMILE]

Lookee! lookee! See what else this friend had! ... and picture me jumping up and down!
This was really George's patch!

Thank you SO much, Frogsmile, for posting the photos of dress uniform.
Among the other clues about George, I found that:
George must have entered the service on or about 15 February 1900.
He was at Brompton Barracks in the March 1901 census and was a Lance Corporal, so I super appreciate the photo of a Lance Corporal that you posted previously.
Not sure of his rank when he married in 1903, so is it either lance corporal or sergeant, or was there something in between?

Regarding the 1901 census- Do you suppose the number of men listed as sappers beneath each lance corporal's entry in the census has anything to do with the command configuration? There is a 2nd Corporal on the page above, with another lance corporal directly beneath, followed by sappers.

George went to India about February/March 1903. He was in Secunderabad in 1905 and in Bangalore after that. Wish I could get to that museum that is now in the Brompton Barracks.
It is so exciting to piece together details of this man's life. I thank you for your part in the adventure.

Please note that the Lance Corporal that I posted above was to illustrate the India Pattern Blue Serge Frock, which is the same upper garment as George is wearing. The Lance Corporal in the photo is actually an artilleryman, as evinced by his white helmet that you can see on the chair. It has a ball top, whereas the engineer equivalent would have had a spike. Nevertheless, the remainder of the uniform, including the badge of rank, was similar and so serves well as an illustration of that period.