Photograph Identity

[colenso]

I was at a general antique fair during the week and on a stall full old junk, I managed to pick up this old photograph which looks to have been taken towards the end of QV’s reign? The men wear no medal ribbons, so it my guess is that it may be pre Boer war?

Any ideas as to the men may belong to?

Hope you enjoy

colenso

[grumpy]

Intriguing!

Apart from the soldier with white collar, I think all are infantry officers, in the period when 2Lts did not wear a rank badge. The white collar man is the QMS from his badge, wearing the 7 button home service scarlet frock. The others are wearing the barrack dress, the blue patrol, with side cap. The cap badge is, loosely, a star ..... which throws up a large range of possibilities.

The one white facing says "English, post 1881, not Royal, or Guards" and they are not Rifles either.

I don't think I can screw much more out of it at the moment.

[Frogsmile]

I agree with Grumpy with just a couple of caveats. The QMS appears to be wearing the pre 1881 badge of THE Sergeant Major (later RSM), which was the 4 inverted chevrons surmounted by a QVC. His presence (alone of ORs) is the most likely with what is otherwise a group of just the regimental officers. The QMS badge was either a star above 4 inverted chevrons or just 4 inverted chevrons alone, depending upon his appointment. Secondly, whilst I totally concur that the officers are wearing a Patrol Jacket, it appears to me as if it might be the scarlet as opposed to the blue version, going by the similarity of shade with the QMS/Sgt Maj frock. That said, colour is always difficult to determine with orthochromatic film.

The Second Lieutenants wore no badge of rank between 1881 and 1902. The officers started to wear the Field Service Cap in 1894 (ORs 1896-97) and both blue and scarlet patrol jackets were introduced around 1895, so that helps to date the photo to the late 1890s.

The officer seated on the ground is a captain and looks as if he might be the Adjutant. The rather thickset officer sat behind and to his right is wearing puttees and looks as if he might be the Quartermaster. Behind him (virtually central) is who I believe to be the Colonel (commanding officer - sat in basket chair) and just to his left (as we look) I believe to be the Senior Major (aka Second-in-Command). The other seated officers are likely the senior company commanders and the companies subaltern officers are stood behind. This arrangement is adopted almost universally and without thinking (even today) and represents the omnipresent sense of hierarchy and order.

There were four English Line Regiments without Royal title whose officers (but not always men) wore a star shaped cap badge (without scroll) at that time. They were the Lincolnshires (10th Foot), Devonshires (11th Foot), East Surreys (31st/70th Foot) and Hampshires (37th/67th Foot). I personally believe they are likely to be the Lincolnshires, whose badge was a star without crown (see enclosure). Over the period 1896-97 the 1st Battalion was in Malta and the 2nd Battalion in Woolwich (at that time in Kent).

If there is a location marked anywhere on the photo (perhaps the back) it should be possible to make a definite ID?

[colenso]

Frogsmile,
Many thanks for your valued comments, as ever some very enlightening information. Sadly there is nothing written on the back of the photo card, although it does show the usual foxing which suggests it’s still the original backing-card the photo was stuck down onto.

When I purchased the photo, the stall-holder informed me he had picked it up in a job lot which he’d bought from an auction house in York. I also believe your date of the late 90’s to be correct as I have a similar period photograph of the Northumberland Fusiliers taken around 1896-98 showing the officers wearing the Field Service Cap.

It’s just a long shot but with no medal ribbons on display, I suspect this regiment may have not seen any active service. Is it worth checking the medal rolls by way of narrowing down some of the regiments put forward?

Regards

colenso

[grumpy]

silly error re. the RSM! Not as if I had taken strong drink.

The comment re. lack of medal ribbons has set me thinking ............ I don't have a note on the subject but as all present are wearing the then equivalent of woolly pully in barracks, ribbons are unlikely. I am away from my sources but am pretty sure that I have seen patrols bereft of ribbons, when the owner was certainly entitled.

[Frogsmile]

silly error re. the RSM! Not as if I had taken strong drink.

The comment re. lack of medal ribbons has set me thinking ............ I don't have a note on the subject but as all present are wearing the then equivalent of woolly pully in barracks, ribbons are unlikely. I am away from my sources but am pretty sure that I have seen patrols bereft of ribbons, when the owner was certainly entitled.

Absolutely correct Grumpy, medals were not worn in undress uniform. A lot of confusion is caused because that changed after the cessation of full dress and the use of blue patrols for ceremonial (less Household Troops) from 1936 on.

[Frogsmile]

Frogsmile,
Many thanks for your valued comments, as ever some very enlightening information. Sadly there is nothing written on the back of the photo card, although it does show the usual foxing which suggests it’s still the original backing-card the photo was stuck down onto.

When I purchased the photo, the stall-holder informed me he had picked it up in a job lot which he’d bought from an auction house in York. I also believe your date of the late 90’s to be correct as I have a similar period photograph of the Northumberland Fusiliers taken around 1896-98 showing the officers wearing the Field Service Cap.

It’s just a long shot but with no medal ribbons on display, I suspect this regiment may have not seen any active service. Is it worth checking the medal rolls by way of narrowing down some of the regiments put forward?

Regards

colenso

Lack of medal ribbons does not help us, but focussing in on the Sgt Maj's collar badge would. It the photo is original and taken from a glass plate then the resolution should be good so that with a powerful magnifier you can focus in. If Lincolns, as I suspect, then the shape should be that of a Sphinx.

[colenso]

Frogsmile,
I’ve played around with the images to a point where the clarity starts to drop out. The Sgt’s Maj. collar badge does somewhat show a shadow similar to the Sphinx badges you have posted. Another anomaly crops up on the officer sat in the wicker chair. His cap badge somewhat differs from the others.

regards

colenso

[Frogsmile]

Frogsmile,
I’ve played around with the images to a point where the clarity starts to drop out. The Sgt’s Maj. collar badge does somewhat show a shadow similar to the Sphinx badges you have posted. Another anomaly crops up on the officer sat in the wicker chair. His cap badge somewhat differs from the others.

regards

colenso

When the FSC was first issued it was most common to utilise a collar badge as insignia. I wonder if that is what the Colonel still has in his cap, although it would seem extremely odd if all his officers have the new regimental badge (a smaller version of that which had been worn on the staff cap).

I see that you have manipulated the image of the Sgt Maj, but have you looked at the hard copy image with a magnifying glass?

[Frogsmile]

I am wondering now if the man who I thought was the Commanding Officer is in fact the Paymaster (hence the different badge) and that the man who I thought was the Senior Major (2IC), is in fact the Colonel. Can you produce a closer view of the latter?

Given his central position and 'comfortable' chair I am still inclined to think it was the Colonel with the odd badge, but it is always possible that it is someone else.

[colenso]

Frogsmile,

Sorry for the delay I'm having trouble trying to find the right light for photgraphing as I do not have a photocopier. Here is the best of bunch.

regards

colenso

[Frogsmile]

Frogsmile,

Sorry for the delay I'm having trouble trying to find the right light for photgraphing as I do not have a photocopier. Here is the best of bunch.

regards

colenso

Thanks Colenso,
I would be interested in others views, but this seems to confirm my suspicions. The badge of rank in this photo appears to be a crown and star, which would be the Lt Col Commanding officer. If so then the officer with the 'odd' cap badge (in basket chair) would be the Paymaster.

[jf42]

Do the puttees worn by the gentleman in the basket chair suggest some association with the Battalion Transport? He does not appear to be wearing spurs so I'm guessing he was not dressed for mounted service (in which case, at this date, in camp, he would have been wearing riding boots, would he not?)

[Frogsmile]

Do the puttees worn by the gentleman in the basket chair suggest some association with the Battalion Transport? He does not appear to be wearing spurs so I'm guessing he was not dressed for mounted service (in which case, at this date, in camp, he would have been wearing riding boots, would he not?)

I think at that time the transport officer (where appointed) was still entirely confined to horsed transport and in any case I appear to have confused both myself and Colenso. Going by age alone I was relatively content that the officer with the puttees was the Quartermaster. There are generally two old boys in a battalion, the Commanding Officer and the Quartermaster and they had often risen together. The other officer I had hoped to see more closely was sat on the opposite side, to the right hand of the central figure, who now seems likely to be the paymaster given his 'odd man out' cap badge. I think you are right that riding boots would have been worn by a man engaged in mounted duty. The officers are clearly in the undress worn in barracks so mounted duty does not seem likely. The puttees could just be because he had been visiting troops in the field (inspecting rations perhaps), or any other of a myriad of reasons I imagine.

[grumpy]

am a bit bothered about a Paymaster as late as our consensus dating ....... away from my sources but I think they were disestablished in Wolseley's day.

Estabs table, anyone ........... I have a complete run but not with me.