"The Sudan" or "Sudan"?

[Khartoum98]

Forgive me all for being trying but please bear with me.

I am a 40 years old and I have noticed (the American newspapers are responsible for this) up to around 1980 or so the New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe apart from the UK papers like The Times, Daily Telgraph or the BBC have always correctly mentioned the Sudan in print as "The Sudan." However, recently in this country and once on a BBS commentary I have seen the country article dropped of its customary definite article. Its quite annoying and sounds rather ignorant and I wish this should be corrected. In Arabic the word Sudan means, "Land of the Blacks" and the word aswad (Black) in Arabic is plural, hence the title, but why after more than a century have the US papers suddenly taken it upon themselves to do a 180, beats me. The European papers still correctly use the definite article.

Editor, if this thread is bothersome please delete it.

Thank you

Khartoum98

[Mark A. Reid]

Hello Khartoum98;

I'm afraid I can't speak for the newspaper world, but they probably have some sort of Style Guide and this might be worth consulting. Perhaps the dropping of the article reflects a change in the perception of the country? When the Sudan was a possession of Egypt or a jointly-ruled condominium it could conveniently be referred to as a sort of territory, like The West in 19th century America. When it became a self-ruling country it " graduated " to become a fully-fledged national entity. Just a random thought but maybe other Members have thoughts?

Mark

[ED, in Los Angeles]

The Sudan or Soudan, was and still is to many, defined by an area south of the Sahara and north of the jungle forest. It is a dry grass land that stretches from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean. By this definition, it is an area with no fixed boundrys.
French Soudan, British Soudan, Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, The Sudan, The Soudan.
As for The Sudan this topic is directed at, if you look at pre 1860 maps, this land is called Nubia or Egypt. Sudan or Soudan seems to have come into use sometime after the 1860's. The most common spelling by english speaking peoples is "Sudan". But there are many books and articles from the 1881 to the 1898 period where "Soudan" is used in print and title, though this seems to be a habit of the 1880's. I grew up in Los Angeles, California and I always used "The Sudan" because that is the way I learned it from my readings as a early teen. My reading were of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan War. But I always saw the word "Sudan" in American text books and newspaper articles. I have an ebay search for "Sudan", and old 1950 and 60's American News paper photos that pop up for sale, simlpy use "Sudan". I do have National Geographic magazines from 1922 and 1929 and it is "The Sudan". Today, "The Sudan", appears to be relegated to history books, about the Khartoum-Sudan we are discussing. Both old history books and new.
I got into a discussion with a bayonet dealer about the Sudan wars, and I used "The Sudan" and he used "Sudan".

"You say 'too-mate-ohs', and I say 'too-mott-ohs'"...(Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers).

The country today is "Sudan" no if's, and's, or but's about it.

I can't speak for modern English press, but my guess is that the press has dropped "The" from "The Sudan". In fact, I just went to the Manchester Guardian U.K. web site and searched Sudan and there was no "The" in any of the items that came up.

The word "The" also is used to differentiate one item, person, thing, from another. "The Sudan", to the British, may have ment to differentiate the area of British interest not related to sub-Saharan Sudan from Red Sea To Atlantic, or defferentiate the area from French Soudan (Sudan), which starts with modern day Chad. It might have been a term of respect for the very harsh but facinating territory. Or maybe both.
The Sudan.
The Congo.
The Niger.
Language is fascinating. it is evolving as we speak. I certainly don't use slang I used as a teen.

It is a language/semantics thing. I will continue to use "The Sudan" in the historical context of the phrase...buy I am not going to greet a guy from Khartoum and ask him if he lives in "The Sudan".

I just thought of something. Is it Atlantic Ocean or The Atlantic Ocean?

[jf42]

'The Atlantic Ocean' or 'The Atlantic'. (See 'Pacific' & 'Baltic'. But not 'Arctic.'
Or 'Antarctic. Or 'Indian')

[ED, in Los Angeles]

Ok jf42...I "sea" what you are doing. See Baltic and Red. South China, Java, see too. See Caspian and Aral and they are not salty. But Pacific...no. It's an Ocean.

[jf42]

As are the Antarctic and Arctic Oceans. But not the brackish Baltic.

[L. Braden]

"The Sudan" is derived from the Arabic "Es-Sudan", which is a contraction of "El-Bilad es-Sudan" or "The Land of the Blacks", which is the name that Arab geographers and others gave it. Under Egyptian rule, it was "The Egyptian Soudan/Soodan"; under British rule, "The Anglo-Egyptian Soudan/Sudan"; and today it's "El-Jumhuriyat es-Sudan" or "The Republic of THE Sudan"--not "Republic of Sudan", without the article "the" (in Arabic, "el", changed to "es" before a "sin" or "s"). So never mind what those revisionist ignoramuses say or write, because most of them can't even pronounce foreign words correctly! Note also "The Punjab", meaning "The Five Waters (i.e., Rivers)", a contraction of "The Land of the Five Rivers".

[Khartoum98]

Thank you L.Braden. You at last put a smile on my face......

[ED, in Los Angeles]

The Official Ministry of Cabinet affairs has it as "The or (the) Republic of Sudan".
The New york Sudan embassy has it as "(the) Republic of the Sudan"
The embassy also uses "the Sudan" while describing itself on the site.
The official ministry web site uses "Sudan" while describing Sudan topics.

The Ministry web site sez that Sudan is derived from a Greek word in the plural that means black people. The embassy site claims the same. Not Arabic. So THE SUDAN, khartoum government, claims it is not Arabic.

So it would seem that if we go by the official embessy sight, then it would be THE Sudan. But wait...the Sudan we are speaking of, streched from the mountains of the Congo to Egypt. It contained the largest swamp in the world, The Sudd, or is it just Sudd. But as of last year, not any more.

Are we all aware that the Sudan has lost roughly 1/5 of it's land? Last year, the southern part of the country voted to succede from the Khartoum government. It is now a new country called "Republic of Southern Sudan". That is what it sez in English on its crest. That is what it sez on it's website. They never mention THE Sudan in any writings. They are a legitimate Sudanese entity. The Anglo Egyptian Sudan war had little known battles with large armies fielded on both sides. The fought in lush green wet environs. Sudanese soldiers came from there.

To these peoples, it is just Sudan.

[Khartoum98]

Look again at the Consulate site of the Sudan to the United Nations, New York. If you take care to read again its the definite article. Or else, call my father, care of the Consulate or my uncle at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Khartoum. Its an American thing after all.

Also, the country's official title is The Sudan, not North Sudan as the New York Times or CNN as it. But, as Americans what we do know? We do not know our own geography, let alone about the Sudan!

[ED, in Los Angeles]

I am at the official UN website and got a link to the UN Sudan site. "Republic of the Sudan".

EDIT: I am an American and I do have a Califonia State College Los Angeles, B.A. degree. Not bragging, but it is in Geography. Not kidding.

[L. Braden]

"Sudan" is NOT derived from a Greek word, nor is it Greek. The plural of the Arabic word "aswad", when referring to a dark-skinned or black person, is "sudan" or "blacks" ("darkies", as "polite" Victorians called them). Ethiopia is from the Greek "Aithiopia", meaning "Land of the Burnt Faces". Its later name, "Abyssinia", is derived from the Arabic "Habeshin" or "Negroes".
P.S. Re "an American thing": Americans are notorious for re-inventing words, trivializing words, mispronouncing words, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseam; and the Brits aren't far behind them in phony lingual revisionism (e.g., the absurd "Gurkha", which most people mispronounce, as a substitute for the old "Goorkha", which is closer in spelling and pronunciation to the CORRECT "Gorkha".

[Mark]

Guys while this might be an interesting discussion it is somewhat borderline in relation to the purpose of this forum.

Thread locked pending deletion.

Mark