Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era?

[Albert J]

Here's a variation of the previous two water bottles. Same shape though smaller in overall capacity. Removable cover with the same press snaps and configuration as the one pictured with the buff leather straps, but now with a finished leather shoulder strap and a removable cup.
AJ

[ED, in Los Angeles]

Albert J....You can post every image of the water bottles you have and assure AndrewM that is water bottle is Boer War. But without provinence, a makers mark, an image in a catalog, or any number of evidenchel types, all you are saying is "Look at all my water bottles. They sort of look like yours, so you MUST have a Boer War Bottle".

Let me fill every body in as to what is going on here. A water bottle was posted for examination as to wether it was Boer War Or not. Since water bottles can not talk, I looked at some features and made the statement it is probably not. We, at this time, really do not know for sure. But judging by some issues with the bottle, I said probably not.

Now Albert J is claiming that it is boer war. Why? Well, it is sorta shaped like a Boer war bottle...It has a chain like a square water bottle.

None of the water bottles Albert J has posted look like AndrewM's initial post. Now admitted we all agree that AndrewM's bottle is a privately prouced pattern. But posting a group of images of bottles with provinence that do not even look like AndrewM's bottle, is really no evidence at all. Open two windows and have Andrew's bottle to the left and Albert J's images to the right and scroll on Albert J's images. Quite strikingly different.

Albert J's evidence is actually contradictory. Now of course this could be a Boer bottle and I could be wrong. But I could also be right. I think I am. But in collecting, there are so many contradictions in every collectable field. Nothing is written in stone.

Forum members, ask youself this....If you saw AndrewM's bottle on ebay and it was written up as a Boer war bottle, would you believe it? Would you buy it?

If you were selling this bottle on ebay, would you claim it was a Boer war bottle?

[Albert J]

I'm only using this forum as it was intended. The title of this thread is "Water Bottles: Patterns in use in the late Victorian era"
I responded in a thread that hasn't been active in some time with some insight, usefully information and potential answer to a question. I mentioned to Andrew I would locate the photo of the water bottle I once owned and post it. In the meantime I thought it would be informative to share some pics and observations with the forum. Didn't expect to thrown under the bus.

Ed, and anyone else that cares too , refer to Ed's response to me in the "Boer War Headgear"thread in regards to a helmet flash.
Isn't this what these forum are for ED??? To share observations, to inform, to gather information. Don't be a hypocrite, it's not very becoming.

Love to see your Victorian era water bottles Ed.

AJ

[ED, in Los Angeles]

AJ...I am very surprised by your post. There is no hippocracy here on my part or your part. Like you said in your post to me..."Isn't This what these forum are for ED??? To share observations, to inform, to gather information".
This is how this forum is and works. Remember, this is a forum. It involves all of us. When you made your statement that you thought this was a Boer War bottle, I responded that I believed otherwise as I have done on this topic before. Did you read all the posts? I was a major contributor. I was simply refuting your claim. And as you said, "To share observations, to inform, to gather information". I dissagreed with you. And people have dissagreed with me. I did not throw anybody under a bus. nor has anybody spoken to me in the years I have been here like you have in your last post. I don't think people would interact with me if I threw them under the bus. I challenge anybody who I think is wrong. So does EVERYBODY else on this forum. I have been challenged by forum member frogsmile about a belt buckle and I think he is probably correct.

AJ, this is how this forum works. These are not my rules, this is just how every forum I have ever been in works. Wether it be a music forum, guitar forum, gun forum, or any forum.

I loved you images and narrative. But what if you posted the wrong issue year of one of your bottle images. Can't you be corrected with the proper issue year? Can I not dissagree with your assessment of the provinance of this water bottle?

I have not been rude to you in any way,shape or form. But your last sentance of your last post certainly has to me. "Love to see your Victorian era water bottles ED". That can easily be translated into what you really mean, and it is not good.

But enough of this. Something came up on one of AJ's water bottles that was brought up this week about a service helmet. We were discussing the use of herringbone strapping on an altered or "made up" of parts helmet that was presented to the forum by a new poster. The helmet in question had what appeared to be a real helmet shell, (maybe not), and a weird suspension system that was found out to be the suspension of an American WWII helmet or a early American football helmet. I made a statement that I did not know if strapping with a herringbone weave was even available in Victorian times. Cloth was available for herringbone suits, but strapping? Well two or more of AJ's large bottles have a wide herringbone strapping. Ther you go, another issue solved.

[Albert J]

HI AndrewM, as promised I located a photo of the water bottle I once owned and claimed to be like the one you questioned to start this thread. As stated mine had a buff leather shoulder strap as opposed to webbing, and as I recall had a cord strap attached to the stopper as opposed to pressed nickle/copper links. The cord could have been a replacement for a broken chain. The khaki cover is marked to the Orkney Royal Garrison Artillery and dated 1897. It is smaller and slightly deeper than the Mk.IV water bottle, and with same flat surface and rolled lip as yours. Hope this helps.
AJ

[Albert J]

Here are a few more Victorian Era water bottles. Both officer's private purchase. The one on the left , though similar in shape to the Idia pattern for officer's, is in fact half the size. It is made of tin, with a screw on stopper, nickel chain, and khaki serge covering as opposed to felt, and has a finished leather shoulder strap of fine quality. The use of khaki serge and khaki drill is not un-common on water bottles of this period. Refer to Cal's post on page 2, fig 9, of this thread.

The bottle on the right is glass, covered in dark blue felt and has a highly finished japanned white leather shoulder strap. This bottle might have been more common in the mid-19th century than latter. Glass is not very practical on campaign. It's also known to have been imported through the blockades during the American Civil War, and used by some confederate officer's. The brass topped cork stopper is marked..."Bryan's Army Bottle Regtd 22222 Dacre Street Westminster.
AJ

[Albert J]

This is another Victorian Era officer's private purchase water bottle. Made of aluminum an covered in very thick felt. The bottle itself is 2" deep. It lacks it's leather cradle which would have been similar to one of the officer's India pattern bottle pics I posted earlier.

The last bottle shown is a variation of the carry cradle for the Italian or oliver pattern water bottle, and was worn on the service belt.

I've enjoyed sharing these with everyone and hope it will be of use to all with an interest in the Victorian Era.
AJ

[ED, in Los Angeles]

I have enjoyed your sharing of these images and you are a great guy and you post with great and honest clarity. If i said anything to upset you, I sincerely apologise....ED

[Albert J]

Cheers Ed
AJ

[Jocktamson]

Ive had this Canteen/Waterbottle for some years now, I have no idea if its military, it came with a bunch of other mid victorian military bits and pieces, It was suggested to me that this style was quite popular with Officers during the Crimean War but Ive never been able to verify this. It certainly looks as if its got quite an age to it. The Leather harness has a makers name, but no date or any other clues as to how old it might be, The harness is quite fragile and the writing very hard to make out. Since this seems to be something you guys might know about if anyone has any suggestions or Information, I would appreciate it.

[Albert J]

Thanks for posting that Jock...outstanding! It is a mid Victorian private purchase water bottle. The only other example I've ever seen is on display in the Guards museum as being carried by an officer of the Grenadier Guards in the Crimea.

Very impressive and very rare. A lucky man you are. Thanks for sharing. You'd do a great justice to also post that as a Crimean War interest. Wow...is this heaven, or Iowa???

[Jocktamson]

Thanks again Albert, I was co-incidentally discussing this post on Skype with a couple of friends and mentioned your reply regarding the Guards, when one of them sent me a photograph through of the Water Bottle you had mentioned belonging to a colonel in the Grenadier Guards so you are spot on with your reply...I now have a photograph and proof this style of Water Bottle was used in the Crimea....its only taken me nearly 9 years to confirm it!

Image from the book Crimean Memories - Artifacts of the Crimean War by Will Hutchison, Michael Vice, & B.J. Small

[Albert J]

My pleasure. Thanks for sharing. And it looks like another book to add to the shopping list.

19th century water bottles from any nation hold a certain fascination for me and I can't really describe why or how this came about.
AJ

[Jocktamson]

Anyone care to have a stab at this type of waterbottle? ... I bought this from eBay about 6 years ago, and have again never been able to identify the period. It has had something on the face of the Waterbottle which I can only guess at as looking like a B.O. possibly had the crows foot below, but its been deliberately defaced for some reason. It also has a Crows Foot marking on the strap, which should make it military issue, anyone have any thoughts on it?

[ED, in Los Angeles]

How about some more pics Jocktamson.

Top and Bottom.
Bottom and side of stopper.
Close up of how the strap is threaded through the wood.
Close up of opening without stopper inserted.
Close up of the buckle.
Is there a hole through the stopper?