Florence Nightingale: Heroine or Not?

[DanArchangel]

Having heard that Dr James Barry (born Margaret Bulkley - an amazing story in itself) met Florence Nightingale and severely admonished her for unclean practices (acknowledged by FN who referred to Dr Barry the hardest person she ever met), I suspect that FN was not such a good nurse as her reputation has been built up to be, even though she tried valiantly. I reckon that FN was taken up by the British propaganda machine and heavily promoted as a truly British heroine in the British press, as a smoke screen to obscure the catastrophic nature of the Crimean War, as the military and political disaster it was. I also suspect that is the reason why Dr James Barry is very rarely mentioned in the British media to this day, because she pricks the propaganda bubble.

[DavidL]

Hi,
I have letters from one of Eliza Mackenzie's nurses to many of her relatives, her name was Mary Erskine and she took over when the Mackenzies left. If Leigh is interested get in contact. Mary mentions the MAckenzies repeatedly and knew them before they all went out to Turkey. The letters describe the journey out via Malta, the nursing, and well as trips on the Bosphorus and into Constantinople. Florence Nightingale went to Therapia to recuperate when she became ill, Mary looked after her.
David

[Mark]

Having started this thread some two and a half years ago I am delighted to see it still of interest to members. Thank you all so far for your replies, thoughts and opinions - it has been a very interesting read. All I can say is keep the posts coming!

Mark

[Liz]

This year (2010) is the centenary of Florence Nightingale's death and to mark the occasion, a display of intimate family memorabilia will go on display at Claydon House in Buckinghamshire, one of the places where Nightingale found sanctuary in her long life after the Crimean war. More info: http://worldbbnews.com/2010/05/05/a-new-light-on-florence-nightingale-the-reluctant-celebrity/

[Liz]

And here's another snippet: 12 May was International Nurses Day, so chosen because Florence Nightingale was born on 12 May 1820.

To mark the day this year, science presenter Robyn Williams interviewed medical historian Dr Jim Leavesley about nursing before (and after) Nightingale. The conversation was broad-ranging and picked up Queen Victoria, Martin Chuzzlewit by Dickens and more.

The transcript and audio clips are at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2010/2898676.htm

[Rusteze]

I have just seen this thread and thought I would belatedly add my view. My wife's ancestor, John Ryder, was an Orderly 2nd Class with the Medical Staff Corps at Scutari Barrack Hospital when Florence Nightingale was there. We have letters home from him to his family and from Florence Nightingale to him about the savings scheme she ran for ordinary soldiers wishing to send a small part of their pay home to relatives.

In recent times it has become fashionable to denigrate Florence Nightingale and even more fashionable to promote the role of Mary Seacole. Truth is, both should be held in equally high regard for what they did. I base my view of Florence on what John Ryder said about her in his letter home - he was a very ordinary soldier, not one of the great and good and certainly not part of any PR campaign. Quote:

"Barrack Hospital, Scutari.
December 24th 1855
Dear Mother, I have sent you a sovereign by Miss Nightingales bank as that is the only safe way we can send it." "I must say that Miss Nightingale is in the Hospital where I am, she comes in and gives the men anything they ask for but she is a very plain woman no pride about her and is a very kind woman and the Army says she is a true friend to the sick soldier and they all like her because she does it without pay."

That short contemporary testimony from the rank and file is, in my view, worth more than a barrow load of current opinion from authors seeking to push a particular line or increase book sales. Nightingale in the Crimea was a true heroine, not just in the eyes of the public, but also the poor wretches she tried to help at the time.

[Mark]

That short contemporary testimony from the rank and file is, in my view, worth more than a barrow load of current opinion from authors seeking to push a particular line or increase book sales. Nightingale in the Crimea was a true heroine, not just in the eyes of the public, but also the poor wretches she tried to help at the time.

Mmm I think one letter is not evidence enough of this. I remain open minded but further evidence is required before accepting a statement like that.

Mark

[Rusteze]

Hello Mark

I agree that evidence is always good to have when trying to reach a firm view on conflicting opinions, and the more evidence the better. My aim in quoting from John Ryder's letter was to show evidence of what ordinary soldiers thought of Florence Nightingale at the time, from direct reporting of her ministrations as a nurse. So far as I know, there is precious little of such testimony surviving from the mouths of those she helped. We may therefore wait a long time for the further evidence you understandably seek. In the meantime authors will of course continue to speculate and interpret, but what they offer is largely more opinion not evidence.

She was of course a pioneering administrator as well, and her skills in that field may well have been of much greater consequence in the history of medicine and more widely. We should remember that lack of effective organisation lay at the core of many of the catastrophes endured by the Army in the East. Shiploads of dressings and lint sitting in the harbour at Balaclava and no one with the will or wit to get them to where they were required is but a single example.

I stick to my view that Nightingale was undoubtedly a heroine.

Steve

[Mark]

Rusteze

You may well be correct and I agree that some authors may have gone too far the 'other way' with their reassessment of Florence to suit their own ends. However, I think it is important to consider both sides of the arguement and while we may never really know the truth I suspect the reality is somewhere between the two.

Mark

[seaJane]

If anyone is still looking for information about Eliza Mackenzie, I work across the hall from the QARNNS archive and can put you in touch - haven't used this forum very much but I assume there is a private message system?

Regards

seaJane

[Frogsmile]

I think that the truest statement made in this thread is that the truth lies somewhere between the two schools of opinion. Personally I think her greatest strength was threefold, as an administrator, organiser and statistician, rather than just as a nurse in its traditional sense. She instinctively believed that clean, well-ordered conditions were vital, but it was not until she returned home to Britain and examined the statistics (especially epidemiology) that she had instigated and herself led the way with, that she realised, with apparently heartfelt horror, the many mistakes that had been made in terms of the design and location of hospital facilities (e.g. at Scutari over a cesspit) and the management of hygiene and sanitation. It seems that as a result of this full awakening (and to some degree a sense of guilt) that she devoted the rest of her life to the design of hospitals and the organisation of nurse training and its emphasis, above all else, on hygiene and sanitation. There is quite a good article about her legacy, warts and all, here: http://www.countryjoe.com/nightingale/F ... 0final.pdf

[Rusteze]

I agree with you Frogsmile that Nightingale demonstrated real strengths beyond those of direct nursing and you may well be right that her own groundbreaking work in statistics and administration later led her to realise earlier mistakes. I think that is to be aplauded. But it should also be remembered that the esteem in which we hold nurses today (most of the time !) is also largely down to the training and attitudes developed by her. There was no "traditional sense" of nursing before her time. I understand people wanting to take a middle path in all this, but come on - the question in the title is heroine or not. I stick to my view.

[Frogsmile]

I agree with you Frogsmile that Nightingale demonstrated real strengths beyond those of direct nursing and you may well be right that her own groundbreaking work in statistics and administration later led her to realise earlier mistakes. I think that is to be aplauded. But it should also be remembered that the esteem in which we hold nurses today (most of the time !) is also largely down to the training and attitudes developed by her. There was no "traditional sense" of nursing before her time. I understand people wanting to take a middle path in all this, but come on - the question in the title is heroine or not. I stick to my view.

Yes, I am inclined to agree with you that she was indeed a heroine, albeit perhaps not quite the saint that some have painted her to be in the past.