Berkshires 66 foot

[buldog065147]

Can any one tell me what the helmet plate, the collar dogs and shoulder titles and facings on collars and cuffs would have been in 1879.
I am taking into consideration 1881 reforms and subsequent appointment to 'royal' in 85.

So, after 81 would they have complied with the reforms and had white facings on collars and cuffs if so what would the BC helmet plate and centre, collar dogs and shoulder title have been?

After 85 what was the helmet plate, collar dogs and shoulder titles like. I assume blue facings on collars and cuffs.

I have seen a post 81 style large BC helmet star plate with 66 in the centre would this have been post last Shako and pre 'royal'

I know its complicated but its of great importance.
BC=Blue cloth.

[jf42]

You might find some of the following post helpful (it's been a while since I read it).
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3037
uniform query. THE ROYAL BERKSHIRES

[FROGSMILE]

Can any one tell me what the helmet plate, the collar dogs and shoulder titles and facings on collars and cuffs would have been in 1879.
I am taking into consideration 1881 reforms and subsequent appointment to 'royal' in 85.

So, after 81 would they have complied with the reforms and had white facings on collars and cuffs if so what would the BC helmet plate and centre, collar dogs and shoulder title have been?

After 85 what was the helmet plate, collar dogs and shoulder titles like. I assume blue facings on collars and cuffs.

I have seen a post 81 style large BC helmet star plate with 66 in the centre would this have been post last Shako and pre 'royal'

I know its complicated but its of great importance.
BC=Blue cloth.

JF has given you a good steer from a previous debate, but I can also add that after 1881 the white facings were worn briefly before the regiment was made Royal and new dark blue collars and cuffs adopted in 1885. It is likely for other ranks that new tunics were issued and old ones returned to store for re-issue elsewhere. Officers, however, would have had the alterations made by their tailors.

After 1881 the star shaped badge on the Blue Universal Helmet had a Stag as its central motif and before that (i.e. after the helmet was introduced in 1878) each of the forebear regiments had their own number on the last pattern shako plate as shown in the enclosed photo from Aug 1881, where the new, universal star badge has yet to be issued, but he does have the new tunic with jam-pot cuffs. Notice also that he still has the old pattern belt buckle (pre 1870) with 66 on the centre piece, but that no collar badges are worn. The helmet is also the first pattern with distinctly curved peak.

[buldog065147]

Thanks for imput to date......Very informative
However Ill explain further so there is no mystery.
I have been doing military reenacting for years. Five years of that was with the'Diehards' who portrayed Middlesex Regiment 1882/86. Home Service. A simple uniform with the white facings and jampot cuffs and all the buff equipment that went with it.

We also dropped back in time and went to Africa in 1999 for the 120th anniversary as 24th Foot. as you will agree their change over from 24th to SWB was also a simple transition.
The group I am with has some 30 years experience in producing authentic public displays and presentations from Victorian to WW2 and we have to have it right,
We have a new client for whom we have recently done an event at Eastney Barracks Southsea. It was sp successful they want us to do it again next year with an Afghan theme. There will be modern marines, Marines through the ages and of course with the Berks being the forerunners of marines and being at Maiwand they are the most likely regiment for portrayal as Victorian soldiers.
The whole problem is getting the kit right.
I have BC helmet and 7 button red tunic with white facings,
Already I see complications with badges, buckles facings. due to 1879/81 transitions prior to 'royal'.

Therefore, My solution is: Go post 'royal' Home Service with BC helmet with Star plate and Royal Berks HC with Stag.
Replace my white facings on my tunic as blue. Reverse the shoulder titles to hide 'Middlesex' Have Royal Berks or what ever stitched into reverse side. Ill need to know that.
I can wear the std Victorian crown buckle. Ill need to check for collar dogs because that dragon has to come in somewhere Im sure.
What do you think?

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for imput to date......Very informative
However Ill explain further so there is no mystery.
I have been doing military reenacting for years. Five years of that was with the'Diehards' who portrayed Middlesex Regiment 1882/86. Home Service. A simple uniform with the white facings and jampot cuffs and all the buff equipment that went with it.

We also dropped back in time and went to Africa in 1999 for the 120th anniversary as 24th Foot. as you will agree their change over from 24th to SWB was also a simple transition.
The group I am with has some 30 years experience in producing authentic public displays and presentations from Victorian to WW2 and we have to have it right,
We have a new client for whom we have recently done an event at Eastney Barracks Southsea. It was sp successful they want us to do it again next year with an Afghan theme. There will be modern marines, Marines through the ages and of course with the Berks being the forerunners of marines and being at Maiwand they are the most likely regiment for portrayal as Victorian soldiers.
The whole problem is getting the kit right.
I have BC helmet and 7 button red tunic with white facings,
Already I see complications with badges, buckles facings. due to 1879/81 transitions prior to 'royal'.

Therefore, My solution is: Go post 'royal' Home Service with BC helmet with Star plate and Royal Berks HC with Stag.
Replace my white facings on my tunic as blue. Reverse the shoulder titles to hide 'Middlesex' Have Royal Berks or what ever stitched into reverse side. Ill need to know that.
I can wear the std Victorian crown buckle. Ill need to check for collar dogs because that dragon has to come in somewhere Im sure.
What do you think?

I can see your dilemma but it seems to me that if you are using an Afghan theme you should be foregoing your scarlet and wearing khaki, as worn by the 66th at Maiwand. If you must wear their scarlet then again be accurate and wear the 66th Regt's correct uniform in scarlet with Gosling Green facings, perhaps using a 5-button frock rather than 7-button full dress (depending on what you have available), as then only the collar need be coloured.

Your alternate options do both seem relatively easy given the uniforms you say you already have. You can use the jam pot white facings used between 1881 and 1885, perhaps with the 66th badge as shown in the contemporary photograph, or you can as you say, go post Royal and wear jam pot dark blue with helmet star. However, if you do that then the Afghanistan theme is much diluted, which seems to rather defeat the object. I suggest you find out what the organisers would prefer.

[buldog065147]

A bit of a dilemma yes. However we get a free hand to do what we want. We do have the facilties in putting some of the younger members into KD with blue puttes and toecapless boots.They didnt normally wear helmet plates on campaign so helmet covers on the correct solar helmets will make a nice effect along with grubby buff leather gear and martinis. I can then extend this into the post Afghan period for contrast. We may even get a WW1 and WW2 Berkshires set up bringing us into present day. it could work.
All our weapons fire to there could also be a display of firepower from military weapons through the ages.
As for myself:
All I need to know now is what dogs they wore as a royal regiment and did they have stitched in shoulder titles as say for Middlesex?

With regard to the 5 button earlier tunic does that have the two piped lines and two GS buttons on the back?
Also is it the same format fro the facings as for 24th foot with white trifoil/treffoil? knot embelishment on the cuffs because we have all that.
Cheers Mike

[buldog065147]

134780_179365738760979_100000626627049_447992_4395650_o.jpg (17.4 KiB) Viewed 1486 times

This is a photo of us at Aldershot back in the late 90s Im second from right front row
They are a good group and you had to earn all service stripes and marksmans badges

[FROGSMILE]

A bit of a dilemma yes. However we get a free hand to do what we want. We do have the facilties in putting some of the younger members into KD with blue puttes and toecapless boots.They didnt normally wear helmet plates on campaign so helmet covers on the correct solar helmets will make a nice effect along with grubby buff leather gear and martinis. I can then extend this into the post Afghan period for contrast. We may even get a WW1 and WW2 Berkshires set up bringing us into present day. it could work.
All our weapons fire to there could also be a display of firepower from military weapons through the ages.
As for myself:
All I need to know now is what dogs they wore as a royal regiment and did they have stitched in shoulder titles as say for Middlesex?

With regard to the 5 button earlier tunic does that have the two piped lines and two GS buttons on the back?
Also is it the same format fro the facings as for 24th foot with white trifoil/treffoil? knot embelishment on the cuffs because we have all that.
Cheers Mike

Yes that sounds like a plan. The post 1885 dogs were Chinese dragons, as posted in the other thread, but I will show one again here and yes, the titles were embroidered in white worsted, I think as R.BERKSHIRE, or R.BERKS, but that will need to be checked (the 1 Vol Batt at that time wore: '1 (above) BRK' and kept the Gosling Green!).

The 5-button frocks had the facing patch (gosling green - a yukky colour) and trefoil loop until 1881, when it was replaced with a pattern that had just the collars in facing colour and the cuffs of self coloured (i.e. red) jam pot type.

[jf42]

The post 1885 dogs were dragons, as posted in the other thread, but I will show them again here and yes, the titles were embroidered in white worsted, I think as R.BERKSHIRE, or R.BERKS, but that will need to be checked.

The History of the Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales’s) 1929-1947 by Brigadier Gordon Blight (London 1953) remarks that around 1932 "Dress changes became imminent... cap and collar badges accepted a bar instead of the indecipherable scroll of ‘Princess Charlotte of Wales’ and the title itself underwent a change thereon from ‘R. Berkshire’ to ‘Royal Berks’- and if it lost some dignity, it gained in warmness, balance and euphony."

Delicately put. I hope that helps.

In addition, according to HEAD DRESS BADGES OF THE BRITISH ARMY (Kipling &King, 1973), it wasn't until 1891 that the cloth ground behind the stag and oak emblem in the centre of the helmet badge changed from black to red velvet to reflect the Berkshires' status as a Royal Regiment.

[buldog065147]

Ok, Thanks again, It so happens I have those 'dogs'. All I need to establish is the exact lettering for the shoulder tab because I have a man who can do that on a machine.. Ill post further if clitches arise.

[jf42]

Ok, Thanks again, It so happens I have those 'dogs'. All I need to establish is the exact lettering for the shoulder tab because I have a man who can do that on a machine.. Ill post further if clitches arise.

If you contact The Wardrobe, the Museum in Salisbury that deals with the history of the Royal Berkshire Regiment, they ought to be able to help you.
http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk

I wouldn't bother using the search facility on their website, by the way. It's very clunky and all the images are so watermarked as to be illegible.