Swords: P1853 troopers swords used in the Crimea?

[gjames]

Does anyone have any substantive information as to wheter or not any Pattern 1853 trooper's swords were carried in the Crimea?

[Will Mathieson]

Hello, many sources state that the 1853 sword was used but the numbers used is unknown, most guess at about half or less. Some hybrids were found, part 1821 and 1853. Page 93 of Charles Martyn book, The British Cavalry Sword from 1600 shows a 1853 blade with 1821 guard. Kirschbaum also made the 1853 due to the lack of British production levels. LCol of the Royal Scots Greys wrote that the 1853 was defective. Sir Evelyn Wood recorded in the Crimea: "doctors sent down to the wounded (at Balaclava) and they described to us that evening the effect of some of the sword cuts inflicted by our Heavy dragoons on the heads of the Russians as appauling; in some cases, the head-dress and scull being divided down to the chin." This was taken from the book, Swords of the British Army, by Brian Robson.

[Jonathan]

Hello, gjames, and welcome to the forum! To add to what will said, Robson covers this pp.31-32 of the revised edition. He states that the 11th Hussars and 2nd Dragoons were at least partially quipped with the P1853. He believed that as many as half of the troops had the new pattern. You may be interested in "Swords for the Crimea: Some Scottish Officers' Swords Manufactured for Britain's War with Russia, 1854-56" by Stephen Wood (The Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, London, Vol. XVIII, No. 3, pp 115-135). It contains some discussion of the P1853.

Jonathan

[gjames]

Many thanks. Thought that might be the case, but needed some substantiation. Really appreciate your input. Am trying to put together Light Brigade troopers' basic arms setups, and now believe I have most of the components--Victoria Carbine, 1842 Lancer's Pistol, P53 Sword and P29 Sword. Just need a P46 Lance and I'm pretty well set.

[Jonathan]

I would love to see some photos of your assemblage of arms!

[gjames]

Just made a major move from CA to MT and can't find my camera. When I do (or when I give up looking and buy another one,) will be glad to oblige.

[Matt Easton]

Many thanks. Thought that might be the case, but needed some substantiation. Really appreciate your input. Am trying to put together Light Brigade troopers' basic arms setups, and now believe I have most of the components--Victoria Carbine, 1842 Lancer's Pistol, P53 Sword and P29 Sword. Just need a P46 Lance and I'm pretty well set.

P29 sword? Do you mean the 1821 pattern (with 1845 type blade)?

I happen to have been reading some first-hand account from Balaclava last night and I wonder if any soldiers were still carrying the old piped-back 1821 blades?

[gjames]

Yep. Bad typing and even worse editing. Absolutely meant 1821. Mine was made by Reeves and is marked to a yoemanry unit (Q.O.R./Y.C.)

[Jonathan]

Excellent, thank you. I look forward to seeing your P1821 trooper's sword!

[Jonathan]

I happen to have been reading some first-hand account from Balaclava last night and I wonder if any soldiers were still carrying the old piped-back 1821 blades?

If the owner felt the sword was still serviceable then I think that it is possible. I am not sure what exists as far as documentary evidence, though. I would guess very little! Swordcollector1 has a P1821 HC pipe back which may have been used in the Crimea.

[Will Mathieson]

I believe the 1821 HC sword aways had the fullered blade, the officers 1821 swords had the pipeback. Most likely officers pipeback swords were used as were troopers 1821p.

[Will Mathieson]

The 1864 dress regulations referred to the blade for the first time as grooved (fullered). Brian Robsons book, Swords of the British Army, page 75

[Jonathan]

I assumed Matt was asking about officers' swords.

[Will Mathieson]

Yes of course, I should have too. Not at my best with this cold.

[Matt Easton]

Thanks guys - actually I was thinking of both officers' and troopers' weapons. The thing which made me wonder was a first-hand quote yesterday which stated that a certain regiment was using the 'old pattern swords' at Balaclava and that they would not thrust through the Russian greatcoats because of their flex. This made me wonder, because the 1853 to my eyes is not really any stiffer than an 1821 with '45 type blade.... however, the older pipe-backed blade certainly is more flexible, so I wondered if maybe they were still in service. I can dig out the quote if it's of interest (and after my new years' hangover!).
Cheers,
Matt