Longarms: shotguns and carbines carried by British officers?

[L. Braden]

How to reconcile the contradictory accounts: Either the Colt misfired and H. snatched his carbine from his gun-bearer (and H. evidently did have a carbine), or he thought that by mentioning a revolver the act would appear more like murder than a firing-squad-type execution (i.e., "judicial murder"). Of course, he need not have said with what weapon he did it, unless he thought that the "revolver" allusion would be made public--which it was! In any case, he once told Capt. Hutchinson of the Bengal Engineers that he did not trust the Colt, because "the bullet does not always give sufficient shock to the system to kill a man." (L. J. Trotter, A Leader of Light Horse, 1901.) Griffiths evidently alluded to the small hole made by the popular .36-calibre Colt. Carbines, then being simply revolvers with stocks attached and sometimes elongated barrels, were of the same and larger calibres.
Incidentally, Capt. Ned Grant of the 1st Madras Fusiliers, who was a crack shot, used an Enfield rifle throughout the Sepoy War and reputedly "bagged" or "potted" more "pandies" (to quote the terms then in use) than any other rifleman. He considered it great sport, according to Col. F. C. Maude (Memories of the Mutiny), and Hodson had the same sanguine view of war.

[Matt Easton]

Thanks for that L.Braden, really interesting and useful stuff.
One the subject of the carbines used by Hodson's men - I very much doubt that they were revolver carbines (those were, as far as I'm aware, not in use by British soldiers) - they would have been single-shot shortened rifles or muskets most likely. As such, I wonder what model of carbine they were using? The Enfield carbine did not come into use until 1861 or after.
It also raises the question of the facility of shooting three men in turn, using a carbine that required muzzle-loading after each shot... Perhaps this gives weight to the suggestion that Hodson shot the first two with his revolver and the third with the borrowed carbine (as he does not mention borrowing a second or third carbine, which would certain be more pracitical than standing there reloading from borrowed ammunition pouches).

[L. Braden]

As far as I know, Matt, the most commonly used non-regulation carbine was the Colt, which had a 5- or 6-chamber percussion action exactly like the revolver. If I get a chance, I'll confirm this; but meanwhile, perhaps a Colt expert can offer an opinion. It certainly is an interesting mystery, as is almost everything about Hodson!

[L. Braden]

A quick check reveals that there was the one-piece 6-shot Colt "revolving rifle" and the two-piece "pistol carbine", "which was the pistol proper with a stock that might be removed at pleasure." ("Cavalry," Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1888.) Several writers ca. 1860 mention that such were much used by officers and evidently irregulars in India and elsewhere, whereas the regulars were stuck with the antiquated and cumbersome muzzle-loading Lancaster. The Sharps' and Terry's were Colt carbine competitors, but I find no mention of their use in India, probably because of Sam Colt's phenomenal marketing expertise and unique reputation (deserved or not).

[krh1956]

Sharp's do appear to have been issued to cavalry regiments sent out during the Mutiny ... http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ ... -army.html

[Sabreur]

I doubt that the 1855 Colt's Revolver Carbine was at all common in 1858 in India. Although 1855 is credited as the model year, production and sale was curtailed until 1857 because of concerns over the ammuntion used. Total production was only around 9,300 which included 4,700 which were bought by the Union Army during the Civil War. At least several hundred were in use by the Confederate army.

[L. Braden]

Thanks, krh1956 & Sabreur, for the additional info! According to the articles "Samuel Colt" and "Colt Revolving Rifle" on Wikipedia.org, both rifle and carbine models were available before 1855. The Model 1855, .56-calibre, is designated as "British Carbine"; but there is no info as to how many, if any, were sold to the British market. Also, there were "Adams's revolving carbines" and "Minie carbines"; but I have no details about them. In any case, it seems probable that Hodson had a repeating carbine. If not, then Matt's hypothesis is a good one. But more info would be welcome!

[ED, in Los Angeles]

One of the breech loading carbines used in the Indian Mutiny by a British unit is the Westley Richards Monkey Tail Carbine of 1858. It was used by the 8th Hussars. It is concievable that some officers purchased them for private use. It was not oficially adopted by the Britsh army until 1861 as the rifle of the Cavalry. Certainly there could be other brands of breech loading carbines that could have been used. When the Napalese cach of Victorian guns and accessories was "discovered" at the Lagan Silekhana palace in Katmandu and nearby arsenals earlier this century, there was many Sharps breechloading rifles among the huge supply of Martinis, Sniders, Enfields and other British arms that dated from the early 19th century to the early 20th century. It was quite a surprise to find them as they were inventoried as Enfields. These Sharps were copies of the American gun by the Napalese gun making industry in the 1860's. Where the Napalese got the idea to produce a home grown sharps is a good question. They had to have an example to copy. The Sharps was a fine rifle, and private purchase for English officers is certainly possible, as has been stated in a web site posted in this topic, the Sharps was used by the British Cavalry in India on an experimental basis.

The Westley Richards Monkey Tail Carbine was short by the gun lengths of the day. With a twenty inch barrel on the early models and a projectile diamiter of .465 it was quite a different gun of its day. It fired a combustable cartridge like the Sharps. It has a 'pull bar' or lever behind the top of the breech that had a cord attached to a hole in the pull bar or lever. A soldier would pull the cord (or 'monkey tail') to open the breech and insert the combustible, probably paper cartridge containing both propellent and projectile. The breech was closed and a percussion cap was placed on the nipple and the gun was ready to fire. It was manufactured untill 1881 in different variants. That is a surprise in itself considering it was an old obsolete sytem with the adoption of the Snider in 1866. Twenty thousand of the rifles were produced for military use but i don't know if all were purchased by England.

For a great image of a Westley Richards Carbine, go to http://www.gregmartinauctions.com/aucti ... otID=33517
The example is an early model with a serial number of 84 and is probably a good representation of the gun used in india. If any private purchase carbins were used by officers, it would be this one. Westly Richards was a class act gun maker of sporting arms of good quality and fit and finish. It was and still is a premier gun and ammo supplier to the world. Certainly any Englishman with an interest in guns would know of Westley Richards and probably that strange new breechloader with the Monkey Tail cord at the top behind the lockplate. This was really a great British entry into the "Modern Era", (mid 1850's) of gun making achievment. I absolutly want one for my collection.

See:
"Weapons of The Victorian Soldier"-Donald Featherstone
"Treasure Is Where You Find It"-Christian Cranmer
".577 Snider Enfield Rifles And Carbines"-Ian Skennerton
"The Westley Richards Web site" which is easy to find. It's not hiding from you.

[L. Braden]

Thanks, Ed, for the great info and for noting that officers' carbines were often private purchases and therefore of various makes. Commanders of irregulars, like Hodson, were responsible for arming their own men. It's amusing, if not pathetic, how opinions differed on the value of various arms. For example: "A monstrosity is now being sent to India in the shape of Sharp's carbine, a weapon which, for a cavalry soldier, is, in my humble opinion, about as execrably bad as any weapon that could be designed, except that it has the one good quality of breech-loading. ...Very long range for a cavalry weapon is about as absurd as it would be to have a shot gun that could kill snipes on the wing at 200 yards." (Patrick Edward Dove, gunmaker, "The Revolver," 1858.) Unfortunately, besides the unnecessary range, he doesn't detail why the Sharps was "execrably bad".

[mike snook]

A quickie.....the carbine issued to the CMR of which I spoke earlier does indeed have two triggers....but I expect you firearms wallahs know that already.

Regards

M

[krh1956]

This Christopher Roads video ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK3k1qeZjv4 ... shows one of the problems with the early Sharps (at about 3min 50 secs in). Gas!

[L. Braden]

Thanks to all for your input!
Re Hodson: Maybe the carbine misfired and he had to use his revolver. Why does it matter? Because H., as usual, for whatever reason, may not have been telling the whole truth; and unless we accept Napoleon's premise that "history is a set of lies agreed upon", the whole truth matters. Why did H. have to say that he used a carbine when he, like Macdowell, could have simply said that he shot them?
Incidentally, I wonder if it's generally known that H. originated the khaki uniform (for the Guides Corps) and the sun helmet (for British officers)? So it appears in Twelve Years of a Soldiers Life, pp. 65-6.

[Matt Easton]

So do we have a list of the most popular carbines used in British forces at the time of the Mutiny?
The Lancaster? Sharps? 1844 Pattern Yeomanry carbine? What others?
Is there any evidence of longer arms being shortened to be used as carbines? Was there an 'official' carbine for British cavalry? (the 1844 Pattern?)

Cheers,
Matt

[L. Braden]

According to "Capt. Majendie on Portable Arms" (Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition, 1867), the official arm for the British cavalry in India since 1858-9 was still as of 1867 the Sharps carbine. But without citing any source, John Walter (Rifles of the World, 2006) states that it had been replaced by the Westley Richards.
Re Hodson: "Il saisit la carabine-revolver d'un soldat, et, en trois coups de feu, il tua de sa main ces trois grands coupables" (He seized a soldier's carabine-revolver, and, in three shots, he killed by his own hand these three great culprits). (Fr. Devay, Journal d'Un Voyage Dans l'Inde Anglaise, 1867.) There are lots of references to the Colt, Deane-Adams, and Enfield "car[a]bine revolvers", models 1850-58, and even as far back as 1837 for the Colt; and this was evidently the official name for a revolver with attachable stock, in various lengths and calibres, for the use of cavalry. Auguste Demmin features a "Carbine revolver, with turning cylinder, firing eight shots, for cavalry use." (Weapons of War, 1870.)

[L. Braden]

For whatever they're worth, all of the numerous French accounts of the shooting of the princes state that H. used a revolver or pistol; and E. de Valbezen, who was the French consul general and minister plenopotentiary in Calcutta during the Mutiny, actually quotes Lt. Macdowell thusly: "avec son revolver". (Les Anglais et l'Inde, 1875.) So, either this is an interpolation or Rev. Hodson edited Mac's account to conform to his brother's; and the Rev. certainly did some devious editing in defense of his brother, as was not only proven during his lifetime but later by a careful examination of the Hodson Family Papers.