Bayonets: how widely issued were Yaghatan bayonets

[tabony]

The Yaghatan bayonet was issued to infantry sergeants and all members of the camel corps, who were armed with the Martini Henry. My question is, was the Yaghatan also issued to infantry sergeants when they were armed with Snider Enfield in the same period e.g. Volunteers. This question also extends to the Indian army regiments, did their Havildars also carry the Yaghatan?

Martin

[ED, in Los Angeles]

Yataghan is how it is spelled...Hello everybody.

Yes, sergents in the British infantry as well as the Indian were issued yataghan bayonets and volunteers were PROBABLY given seargeant issued yataghans. In fact, whole units of Infantry, Indian, and volunteer units were issued the yataghan for EVERYBODY. But if you, Martin, are going to incorporate this feature in some of your soldier models, you need to know a little about the Snider rifle to be correct in your portrayal of the firearm.

There are three different types of Sniders, long rifle with three barrel bands holding barrel to stock, short rifle with two band holding things together, and the stubby carbine. We will ignore the carbine and just talk about the long and short rifles.

The long rifle is the rifle that was most issued and it had no accomodations for a yataghan bayonet. The sergeants were issued the short rifle with two bands and that utilized the bladed yataghan. So the seargent not only had a different bayonet than the other ranks, he had a shorter gun by six inches and only two bands on the barrel. The Indian troops were treated the same . I have a picture of the 28th Bombay Native Infantry, Suakin, Sudan, and the three cheveroned, cross body sash seargent has the shorter rifle. I cannot say if the volunteer sergeants were issued the short rifle. But eventually, the short rifle and yataghan bayonet were prefered over the long rifle with socket bayonet and were produced in large numbers and issued to ALL the troops, regular, volunteer and native forces. That is why there are so many two band short rifles on the collector market today. They really did not replace the long three band, they complemented it. The long three band snider is a tall gun. I own one and I actually have to tilt the gun at an angle to get it into the gun safe...it's too long for the door opening. The two band is a much more 'handy' gun and rifles were getting shorter in this second half of the 19th century. Both short and long guns were approved in the last months of 1866

Having said all this, I do have to cover my backside about this posting and let you know that 1800 short rifles with socket bayonet were produced for Indian troops and issued, That is a very small number and probably very few are in the hands of collectors. Also, a contract for New Zealand called for 2000 short rifles with a sawback bayonet. The Navy two band brass mounted short rifle had a hilted cutlass sword bayonet that was a wopping 32.7 inches long! That is a short sword that had a cutlass type hand guard.

See: ".577 Snider-Enfield Rifles & Carbines" by Ian Skennerton

[tabony]

Thanks for that Ed, sorry about the miss spelling. I do know the basics of the snider but as well as being a figure maker I also have an interest even if it can't be scaled down, so any information you pass along will be stored for the future. It's interesting you should mention the Sudan, that's why I was asking about indian troops. You must have read my mind.

Martin

[ED, in Los Angeles]

And speaking of Sniders;

Maybe someone can help me out with a Kipling poem that has been rattling around in my head since I saw this question.
I do not really even know the words, but there is a line in the poem that talks about a .577 Snider round from an Afridi or some other foe that blows a soldiers head apart or puts a huge hole in the British sodiers head. I know the poem exist as I saw it referenced in a gun magazine that I read years ago that had a Snider article. I went to a site that had Kipling poems but he wrote hundreds and I have no clue as to the title. I even 'Binged" Rudyard Kipling/.577 snider and all that came up was some person raving about his newly purchased Martini, and a reference to the poem "The young British Soldier". Not the right poem.

[ED, in Los Angeles]

Here is the poem. Well, part of it anyway.

"There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son
There's a grave on the Pabeng River
A grave that the Burmans shun
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done

A SNIDER squibbed in the jungle
Somebody laughed and fled
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead
With a big blue mark on his forehead
And the back blown out of his head"

The Native troops then go to a rebel village and massacre the inhabitants, rebels and civilian alike. They then take "Five score heads and twain",in dripping baskets, back to the dead British officers grave and piled them on.

"Then a silence came to the river
A hush fell over the shore
And Bohs that were brave departed
And the SNIDERS squibbed no more
For the Burmans said
That a kullah's head
Must be paid for with heads five score

There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son
There's a grave on the Pabeng River
A grave that the Burmans shun
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done"

"Grave Of A Hundred Heads"
Rudyard Kipling

Great poem. I like this Kipling guy.

[tabony]

I was serving in '82 when the lads were sent to the Falklands, the local pubs that didn't want to serve squadies were sudenly calling everyone in uniform a hero and all I could think of was "It's soldier this and soldier that, throw him out the brute"! But it's "hero of his country" when the guns begin to shoot. From Tommy Atkins. Kipling's observations are often still true.

Martin

[Eric CL]

Just to add on "who carried the yataghan bayonets", afaik, all ranks of Rifle regiments (60th/KRRC and Rifle Brigade) had them as well.

Which makes me think that volunteer units who often followed Rifle traditions may have been on the same footing.

Cheers
Eric

[tabony]

You see this is why I like this sight. That's two of you now have thought of the answers, before I thought of the questions

Thanks Martin

[zuluneil]

Eric
Studying photographic evidence of the Robin Hood rifles C1887 they were still armed with P76's.