Florence Nightingale: Heroine or Not?

[Mark]

Recently I read a book called 'The Crimean War' by Clive Ponting. The book re-examines the war and smashes many of the myths that we have been taught at school etc. which, despite being false, have found their way in to official history. In the book he included a chapter on nursing and Florence Nightingale. Here he exposed her as more of a beaurocrat than a nurse concerned with making an enhanced public image for herself rather than caring for her patients. He claims she did not instigate the reforms that led to better hospital conditions which in turn led to reduction in the spread of diseases but rather the reforms were alread planned prior to her arrival. Nor was she in charge of all nurses at Scutari but just a small number who in the main despised her. The Army opposed her but since she was well-connected she managed to get into the theatre of war. She was used by the Victorian media at a time when they desparately needed a heroine to counter the disasters of the War yet did not deserve the status she has been accorded by official history.

With this in mind I would like to start a discussion, for those interested, on Florence Nightingale. What do members think? Did she deserve her image that she has today or was the reality very far from the truth?

Mark

[Bill smithers]

Hi
from my researches Florence Nightingale deserves lasting fame not neccessarily for her nursing skills ,but for her 'PR' skill in promoting the idea of a nursing organization , was not the real heroine of the crimea Mary Secole?

[Mark]

Hi Bill

Firstly let me extend you a warm welcome to the Forum, I hope you find your time on here both enjoyable and educational. I agree with what you say regarding Florence Nightingale as I personally believe she was more of a beaurocrat than a nurse but that does not mean she didn't have a positive effect. I also agree with you that Mary Secole was indeed the "real" nursing heroine of the Crimean War and she is mentioned in Ponting's book in a much more favorable light than Nightingale. Would you say Nightingale received much of the credit which maybe should have been afforded to Secole?

Mark

[villaphan]

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the Forum.

I also believe that Mary Secole was the nursing heroine of the Crimean War but without Florence Nightingales PR skills it may well of taken more time for the way sick and injured were treated to change

Also at that time there were class and race barriers to be bridged and Florence Nightingale more suited the Victorian mindset.

Mark

[Bill smithers]

Hi Mark

I think my reply to your last message got lost in that great website in the sky!, but yes I agree with you. Mary Secole I'm led to believe mixed in a not very salubrious society and would therefor presumably not be in a position of influence in the then early Victorian era. it is good to learn though that nowadays she is recognised, my grand children know all about her, when I was a lad, regretably many years ago she never got a mention in my history book

Thanks for your welcome

regards

Bill

[crimea1854]

Hi Mark

It is my belief that the logistical administration of the war was in such a state of chaos that any good news story would inevitably gain prominence with the press and public at home. The work of Florence Nightingale was one such story.

There was recently a dramatised documentary on UK TV about Florence Nightingale, which I thought got the balance about right between her achievements and the hype.

On the question of other unsung heroines, we now know about Mary Secole, but who has heard of Eliza Mackenzie? She, accompanied by her Protestant Minister husband and six trained nurses, worked in the Therapia Naval Hospital. As a result of her work the Admiralty were subsequently persuaded to have female nursing staff in Naval Hospitals in England.

Martin

[Mark]

Cheers for your thoughts and information guys, very interesting. I fear there are many unsung female heroines who are now lost to history.

Mark

[vivace49]

I've no idea about the Crimea but Florence worked tirelessly after the War to improve conditions for soldiers and their wives. During the late 1850's and early 1860's she with Sidney Herbert led a campaign to improve the health of the Army. A central aspect of their campaigne focused on the soldiers' barracks and medical services. She also gave her support to the Army Sanitary Commisssion of 1857 who had recommended the introduction of trained female nurses to Army hospitals but the War Office resisted the proposal ( because of impropriety!)

[clansman]

Cholera had already killed thousands of people in Britain in1848 and was now in London, where, in the Middlesex Hospital, a well-bred lady with the outlandish name of Florence - to the horror of her well-bred family - was already tending to the sick prostitutes of Soho. Just a thought.

[usartillery]

Opinions about Miss Nightingale vary but an article which appears in the July 2009 edition of The War Correspondent, explains a great deal about why she may have had interpersonal problems based on societal expectations and norms at the time. It also goes into her "illness" upon her return, with some interesting speculation; lastly, it provides some defense for the much maligned Dr. Hall.

[Leigh]

Hi everyone (sorry a newbie on this forum) a bit of a thread hijack..apologies.

I am an ex-Naval Nurse and am researching into the life of Eliza Mackenzie. I would be most grateful if anyone has any info, if they could share it with me.

Many thanks

Leigh

[crimea1854]

Leigh

I don't know if I can add anything that is not already on the internet. However, I do have in my collection an officially impressed Crimea Medal to a Sgt. Alban Elton RM, who received his medal while on HMS London.
After researching the man, what was interesting to me was that Elton was only on HMS London as a passenger, travelling back to England having served at Therpia Hospital. For his entire career he appears to have been carried as a supernumerary on nearly every ship he served on, which suggests that he had particular skills, over and above that of a Royal Marine that perhaps qualified him for working at Therpia.

Apart from the six nurses who travelled out to the Crimea with Mackenzie, I'm afraid I do not know how the Hospital was organised or run, but unlike Scutari in the early days of the war, being sent there was not a death sentance - infact the Navy managed to keep most of it's men healthy while serving ashore, and only the most seriously ill were ever sent there. If a man fell ill, or was only slightly wounded, he was generally sent back to his ship to convalesce.

On leaving the Navy Elton became a Sgt. Instructor with the 1st Battalion, Cornwall Rifle Volunteers, in Truro.

Martin

[Leigh]

Martin

Thank you for the info...that would make sense. Even in today's RN, Royal Marines are used as stretcher bearers in times of conflict (usually band service are used these days though).

I have to confess Eliza Mackenzie has fascinated me since I was a 17 yr old girl at Haslar Hospital undertaking my Naval Nurse training, but other than the basic info nothing seems to be known about her. I am having a rather fruitless search at present. I am hoping that perhaps the RN or QARNNS (as I am an ex-member) may be of some help. I fail to believe that a nurse potentially as pioneering as Florence Nightingale and Mary Seacole existed and no one knows anything about her?

And so the search goes on.....

Leigh

[crimea1854]

Hi Leigh

I've been doing some digging around on the Internet and have come up with the following information on Eliza (Elizabeth). She was one of the daughters of Dr Thomas Chalmers, who was responsible for the creation of the Free Church of Scotland. If you go to the SCRAN website and enter his name in the search engine there are a number of images of Chalmers and his family, and there is currently a statue of Chalmers in Edinburgh.

Eliza married the Rev. John Mackenzie, Minister of Dundeld, in 1839. She apparently arrived in the Crimea in January 1855 and left in November of the same year. There is a piece about her work in the book The Crimean Doctors, by John A Shepherd, extracts of which can be read on Google Books:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7GeAtb71p1wC&pg=PA469&lpg=PA469&dq=Hospital+Crimea&source=bl&ots=VWyn8hx6vg&sig=bHqRljq_nYAftCpfxmtSWi9Q3zg&hl=en&ei=atWCSt7rCdqgjAffwOn7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=snippet&q=Mackenzie&f=false

There are also copies of her letters from her in the Crimea in a book called Women's Letters in Wartime 1450-1945, unfortunately I've no idea how many letters, or the quality of their content.

All the best with your research.

Martin

[Liz]

Hi Leigh

Having reviewed what's available online, I understand your frustration. There is surprising little available on Eliza McKenzie considering her role in setting standards for the care of Navy personnel and their families. However, QARRNS should have more info considering that it acknowledges her as its founder here http://www.shef.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/61/08/Gibraltar%20Conference.pdf.

Do please let us, and through us the rest of the internet community, what you find. This medical pioneer does not deserve to be left in obscurity. And speaking of medical pioneers, I'm curious about what if any relationship she had with Nightingale, Seacole and for that matter Dr James Barry. BTW, if you haven't heard of Dr Barry before, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1913&p=7917.

All the best,

Liz