John James Frushard BELL, HMS Brisk m1868 Sydney

[Poison Dwarf]

Would anyone be willing to look up a name for me in the The Navy List of 1863? I'm trying to determine whether "John James Frushard Bell" (sometimes listed as "John J. F. Bell" in later editions) is listed as serving on the H.M.S. Brisk. If not on the Brisk, is he listed at all?

Thanks in advance.

[crimea1854]

Hi Poison Dwarf

Some of the Navy Lists are available via Google Books, but unfortunately more are missing than are there, this includes the one for 1863. However, have you downloaded his service record from the NA website, since this might answer your question?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7913044&queryType=1&resultcount=14

These is also reference to him on the pbenyon website, but again not for the year you are interested in.

http://www.pbenyon1.plus.com/Nbd/exec/B/Index.html

Martin

[crimea1854]

After the above post I wondered if I could not come at the problem from a different angle. It occurred to me that HMS Brisk took part in the 2nd New Zealand War in 1865, and that it was possible that your man might be on the medal roll, which is where I duly found him : Bell J J F Sub-Lieutnant. She is perhaps unique with only 13 Officers and men qualifying for the medal.

Again this does not answer your question 'was he on her in 1863?', but it looks increasingly likely.

Martin

[Poison Dwarf]

Martin:

Many thanks for your assistance.

Yes, I downloaded his service record and found him in the lists that have been digitized by Google, except for the 1863 list, which apparently hasn't been digitized (yet). The odd thing is that there are dates in his service record that don't seem fit with others. For example, I located a description of the Brisk's action in the Maori Wars in September of 1865, where Bell was commended by his captain (Luce, according to the service record) for his "conduct in operations against rebel natives at Opotiki, New Zealand stating he showed great coolness under fire.”

BUT, other information shows Luce as captain of the Brisk from February 24, 1862 to August 22, 1863. If this is correct, Captain Luce would have been gone from the ship two years before this action took place, with his successor, Captain Hope, serving from August 1864 through January 1869. This is just one of the odd discrepancies in Bell's service record with which I'm wrestling.

My interest in the 1863 list is because I have (or rather, will soon have) a photo of Bell dated October 31, 1863, taken in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Bell was given a cadetship in 1857, and received his commission as a sub-Lt on March 20, 1864, so he must have been a midshipman(?) in 1863. I'm not very well-versed on Royal Navy uniforms, but the kit he's wearing in the photo doesn't fit -- no braid, no buttons -- but there may be some kind of cuff decoration on the left arm. I'll have to wait until the photo arrives to find out.

I've attached the seller's image. I hope to uncover other details once the actual photo arrives.

Thanks again for your help. Any other suggestions or theories will be welcomed.

[crimea1854]

In Capt. Douglas-Morris' book Naval Medals 1857-1880, there is a series of photographs of the Officers from HMS James Watt taken in the 1860's. One of these is of Midshipman Alan F Gardiner; his uniform is described as 'Double breasted round jacket with 7 evenly spaced buttons, worn open over a single breasted white waistcoat. White unpressed trousers with black shoes. Neck wear - a cravat made up as a tie and a standard small brimmed cap with a short peak and gold badge'.

The photograph and description in the book, certainly with regard to the jacket and cap, look to be identical to that worn in your photograph of Bell.

Although 1863 saw the introduction of two lace rings on the sleeves for lieutenants, and one for sub-lieutenants, I'm afraid I do not know what the rank distinction for sub-lieutenants was pre 1863, or even if the rank existed prior to this date!

Martin

[Poison Dwarf]

Martin:

Thanks for that. According to the Royal Naval Museum site (http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sh ... nkings.htm), the pre-1860 rank equivalent of a Sub-Lt. was Master's Mate:

"In principle, any person who satisfied the age and service conditions and passed the examination could be commissioned, it was usual for candidates for commissioned ranks to pass through a number of ratings including that of Master’s Mate. This was technically a senior petty officer rank. He learnt navigation from the Master and generally assisted him. This rank was more highly paid than any other rating and were the only ratings allowed to command any sort of vessel. They could pass examinations qualifying them to command prizes and tenders and act as Second Master of vessels too small to be allocated a warranted Master. In 1824, there was a split and would be Masters became Masters Assistants and would be Lieutenants remained as Master’s Mates. In 1840, Mates were established as a rank below Lieutenants and in 1860, renamed as Sub-Lieutenants. It then became the most junior commissioned rank and the only route to promotion to Lieutenant."

I've seen other photos from about the same period that show similar jackets and caps as described in the book you cite. I think I'll just have to be patient and examine the image in detail when it arrives.

[Poison Dwarf]

The photo arrived, but it doesn't offer much more detail than the seller's photo, above. Here's a shot of the left cuff. It looks like there might be some kind of dark braid, but it's not what I would expect to see (from what little I know about RN uniforms of the period). Thoughts, anyone?

[Lois Sabine]

John James Frushard Bell of H.M.S. Brisk married Augusta Henrietta Bell in Sydney 1868. I have researched Bell up until H.M.S. Brisk was decommissioned in Scotland. This is all new to me so may use incorrect naval terminology. I have a stray and unatributed mention of him as "later Commander".
I am trying to track down his later career to find out what happened to he and his wife in later years. I have just published a medical book written by Augusta's father Dr William Bell in 1849 and am trying to get an overview of what happened to the next generation. Two of her sisters married R.N. men in the same year. One married John Cruickshank Assistant Surgeon, also of H.M.S. Brisk. In 1870 he became the British Vice Consul in New Caledonia. The other sister married Lieut Edward Albert Liardet of H.M.S. Virago and became the English consul in Samoa.

Any help on Bell's later career would be appreciated.

Lois

[crimea1854]

Lois

Can I ask, have you seen the post further down re the same man?

Martin

[Lois Sabine]

Martin,

On the page I am looking at there are no posts further down, just our two. I have seen some other earlier posts, but they all seem to deal with him up to the time the Brisk was decomissioned, and I am searching for him after that time.

Lois

[Liz]

Martin

Thanks for picking up the existence of another thread about this individual. I have now merged the two threads so new readers can easily find all the info we have on this one individual. Cheers all,

Liz

[Poison Dwarf]

Yes, thank you, Martin.

Lois, Bell's service record indicates that he was was placed on the Retired List (due to his age) Sept. 30, 1888, with the rank of Commander, and granted £300/year retirement pay. This point is confirmed by an entry in the London Gazette which reads:

"Admiralty, 3rd October, 1888.
In accordance with the provisions of Her Majesty's Order in Council of 22nd February, 1870—
Lieutenant John James Frushard Bell has been placed on the Retired List, with permission to assume the rank of Commander. Dated 30th September, 1888."

There are other entries in the record -- one of which may indicate that he was awarded a higher than standard retirement pay -- but the comments are written so small that most of the words can't be discerned (at least by me). The same source cites his death on September 19, 1900.

I believe Bell's service on the Brisk ended July 5, 1869, when he joined the HMS Cockatrice. Other entries show that by 27 October 1873, he was on board the HMS Pembroke, and by October 26, 1875, he was on HMS Sandfly. On 26 April 1878, he was serving aboard HMS Duncan as Flag Lieut to the Flag Officer at Sheerness (I'm not certain that I have interpreted this correctly). On July 1, 1878 he took temporary command of a __? __ (looks like "Learner" but may be "Steamer") for drill (?) of NNA (RNA?) Volunteers. On June 27, 1879, he was given six months leave to "... take a Chinese gunboat to China. Feb 9, 1880 reports return to England - 2 March 80 satisfaction expressed."

I have yet to decipher all the details of his service from '78 on, but will do so at the earliest opportunity.

[Lois Sabine]

Great thanks to Liz, Martin and Poison Dwarf. Most helpful. You have made my day. Any idea in which country he may have parked his wife, Augusta Henrietta? I cannot find her deceased in Australia.

Lois

[crimea1854]

Lois

I had no luck finding a death entry for Augusta Henrietta, however I did find the family on the 1881 Census living at 18 Ewell Road (no.1 Woodside Villas), Long Ditton, Surrey. They had three children listed, the eldest of whom, Louisa Margaret was born in Malta. A check of the Malta Family History site, showed that she was born on 13 January 1870, so possibly another small piece in the jigsaw. The remaining two children were Charles Edward (9)- born Galatz, Roamania (?) and Beatrice Augusta (1) - born Sheerness.

Martin

[Lois Sabine]

Thank you Martin, That really is most helpful.

Lois