MICR officer "mistery portrait"

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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 15:11

Hi!

Thanks Guys!

Al this info is really helpful and highly appreciated!

As to collar badges , as said , I have not been able to find ANY evidence so far of their use on the Grey Jacket, from contemporary illustations and photos.

As Frogsmile suggested the Grey uniform was a stop gap, temporary uniform, aimed at some sort of camouflage and comfort: so no surprise if no one thought about embellishing it with collar badges!!.
The fact that in the Camel Corps NCOs and men resorted to sewing their units' initials on the upper sleeve, while officers of most regiments applied their cap badge to their helmets, is to me further evidence that no collar badges (neither , I would imagine, shoulder titles) were worn. So other means to identify an individual's belonging unit (especially in composite regiments like the BCC) had to be resorted to!

Here is repro of a painting showing LT. B. Baden-Powell of the Scots Guards.
Though it is apainting and not a photo, it's one more little piece of evidence against the collar badges on the Grey Tunic.
Yes, The Guards did wear their Grenade Collar Badges in the 1885 pic I posted , but that was the new Khaki Tunic, not the grey one.
(The Guards are actually believed to be the first unit sent from Britain to the Sudan fully dressed in "British Khaki" (as opposed to Indian Khaki, alredy worn by units from India and Aden in the 1884 campaign).

Thanks again, folks!
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 15:25

And now just to be "politically correct" (!) I am posting a colour plate of one of Mr Marling's possible opponents.

I found this nice print of a typical "Fuzzy Wuzzy"Beja Warrior in a print shop in Germany.

I have never seen it published in any books before, so here it is for all VWF members to share!

Ciao!

Marco

:D :D :D
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Frogsmile » 20 Jul 2012 16:50

fantomark wrote:Hi!

Thanks Guys!

Al this info is really helpful and highly appreciated!

As to collar badges , as said , I have not been able to find ANY evidence so far of their use on the Grey Jacket, from contemporary illustations and photos.

As Frogsmile suggested the Grey uniform was a stop gap, temporary uniform, aimed at some sort of camouflage and comfort: so no surprise if no one thought about embellishing it with collar badges!!.
The fact that in the Camel Corps NCOs and men resorted to sewing their units' initials on the upper sleeve, while officers of most regiments applied their cap badge to their helmets, is to me further evidence that no collar badges (neither , I would imagine, shoulder titles) were worn. So other means to identify an individual's belonging unit (especially in composite regiments like the BCC) had to be resorted to!

Here is repro of a painting showing LT. B. Baden-Powell of the Scots Guards.
Though it is apainting and not a photo, it's one more little piece of evidence against the collar badges on the Grey Tunic.
Yes, The Guards did wear their Grenade Collar Badges in the 1885 pic I posted , but that was the new Khaki Tunic, not the grey one.
(The Guards are actually believed to be the first unit sent from Britain to the Sudan fully dressed in "British Khaki" (as opposed to Indian Khaki, alredy worn by units from India and Aden in the 1884 campaign).

Thanks again, folks!



The Sudan campaign in the 1880s was indeed a time of experimental uniforms. I am interested that you say the 3rd Grenadiers are all in khaki drill, as with so many Norfolk styles on display I had first thought that they must be the grey serge.

I do not know how many units wore collar badges on their grey and khaki uniforms, but it seems certain that the Guards did. The grey tunic that I posted seems to have the collar badge of the Coldstream Guards and it is said to be contemporaneous. There are further details about it accessible via the link.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Frogsmile » 20 Jul 2012 16:56

jf42 wrote:My word, there is always something more to learn about this subject.

I should, of course, have qualified my comment by specifiying that in 1884-5 the plain glengarry was standard wear for company officers and Other Ranks.

The officers in the photo of the 3rd Bn Grenadier Guards are all wearing what appears to be the 'Torin cap' because in 1854 the Guards had adopted a Field Service Cap of similar form that predated the 'Torin' by some twenty five years or so. There are several photographs and illustrations of the Guards FS cap from the Crimean war period; notably, a famous lampoon drawn for Punch, a photo of the Coldstream Guards in various orders of dress including ship frock and FS cap (what an opportunity was lost there) and "Butler's Return from Inkerman." I believe Guards officers were authorised to wear this with Mess Dress, on board ship, under canvas & during musketry training. The handy, folding bonnet with a turned-up brim that could be dropped protect the ears appears to have been a copy of the Laagerkappe worn by the Austrian army since 1813, although a flimsy form in linen or wool had been worn by British infantry circa 1800.

Why the Torin was introduced for staff and field officers or above, and how it came to be so-called remains unclear.


Yes JF, I remember having a discussion with you about the Torin before. The earliest image I have seen of the cap in the British service was on a Royal Marine other rank on board ship circa 1805 and it seems that it was worn as an undress cap that was easily stowed. My guess is that they may in turn have adopted it from the Guards, as they did copy a number of the latter's dress features, including valise stars and slashed cuffs (although these last were lost for a while and then regained in 1903).

It seems that the field cap used by the Guards was somewhat taller during the crimea and that the version used in the 1880s was a cut down version (I read this in Fosten I think). I personally think that it is quite likely that the cap became popular on the staff as a result of a former Guards officer of General rank having one made in General Staff colours and that its sheer practicality then quickly caught on so that it was swiftly emulated.

From the staff usage it was then offered as an alternative to the glengarry for those regiments who wished to adopt it. It was particularly popular in the line cavalry (who had never worn the glengarry) and both the RA and RE adopted it. Interestingly, relatively less infantry regiments chose to use it. Some did and kept it and others did, but then changed to the 2 button version later. It would be interesting to do a survey of usage, but it would take considerable time and effort.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Frogsmile » 20 Jul 2012 17:07

fantomark wrote:And now just to be "politically correct" (!) I am posting a colour plate of one of Mr Marling's possible opponents.

I found this nice print of a typical "Fuzzy Wuzzy"Beja Warrior in a print shop in Germany.

I have never seen it published in any books before, so here it is for all VWF members to share!

Ciao!

Marco

:D :D :D


He doesn't seem to be much bothered about collar badges, or pleats for a tunic Marco! :wink:
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Albert J » 20 Jul 2012 17:08

Hello Gentleman,
The attached pics show a pair of serge frocks from the 1st Sudan campaign. Both are Norfolk style. One has the collar badges of the Coldstream Guards, the other is without collar badges.

Albert J
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Frogsmile » 20 Jul 2012 17:09

Albert J wrote:Hello Gentleman,
The attached pics show a pair of serge frocks from the 1st Sudan campaign. Both are Norfolk style. One has the collar badges of the Coldstream Guards, the other is without collar badges.

Albert J


Are they not already on page 1 of this thread Albert?
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Albert J » 20 Jul 2012 17:14

My apologies... I should read the whole thread. :roll:
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby Frogsmile » 20 Jul 2012 17:28

Not to worry Albert. I think it is possible for a period to delete a post if you wish to do so. You just click on the little black cross above the post.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby jf42 » 20 Jul 2012 17:45

fantomark wrote:And now just to be "politically correct" (!) I am posting a colour plate of one of Mr Marling's possible opponents.


'E 'asn't got no papers of 'is own,
'E 'asn't got no medals nor rewards,
So we must certify the skill 'e's shown
In usin' of 'is long two-'anded swords:
When 'e's 'oppin' in an' out among the bush
With 'is coffin-'eaded shield an' shovel-spear,
An 'appy day with Fuzzy on the rush
Will last an 'ealthy Tommy for a year.

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' your friends which are no more,
If we 'adn't lost some messmates we would 'elp you to deplore;
But give an' take's the gospel, an' we'll call the bargain fair,
For if you 'ave lost more than us, you crumpled up the square!
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby L. Braden » 20 Jul 2012 19:26

We've fought with many men acrost the seas,
An' some of 'em was brave an' some was not:
The Paythan an' the Zulu an' Burmese;
But the Fuzzy was the finest o' the lot.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 20:27

Jf42 and l. Braden!
Thanks for your quoting of Kipling' poem as a tribute to the Fuzzy Wuzzy: Actually they are my personal favourite "savages"of the Victorian Era!!
(By the way they also valiantly fought against the Italians in many bloody battles, including Agordat , Kassala , Mocram and Tucruf , among others!).

Attached is an engarving from The Illustrazione Italiana, (a sort of equivalent to the British Illustrated London News) showing a patrol of Italian Bersaglieri capturing a Beja warrior and his lady-friend in 1888!

Ciao!

Marco
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Last edited by fantomark on 20 Jul 2012 21:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 20:47

FROGSMILE wrote:
fantomark wrote:Hi!

Thanks Guys!

Al this info is really helpful and highly appreciated!

As to collar badges , as said , I have not been able to find ANY evidence so far of their use on the Grey Jacket, from contemporary illustations and photos.

As Frogsmile suggested the Grey uniform was a stop gap, temporary uniform, aimed at some sort of camouflage and comfort: so no surprise if no one thought about embellishing it with collar badges!!.
The fact that in the Camel Corps NCOs and men resorted to sewing their units' initials on the upper sleeve, while officers of most regiments applied their cap badge to their helmets, is to me further evidence that no collar badges (neither , I would imagine, shoulder titles) were worn. So other means to identify an individual's belonging unit (especially in composite regiments like the BCC) had to be resorted to!

Here is repro of a painting showing LT. B. Baden-Powell of the Scots Guards.
Though it is apainting and not a photo, it's one more little piece of evidence against the collar badges on the Grey Tunic.
Yes, The Guards did wear their Grenade Collar Badges in the 1885 pic I posted , but that was the new Khaki Tunic, not the grey one.
(The Guards are actually believed to be the first unit sent from Britain to the Sudan fully dressed in "British Khaki" (as opposed to Indian Khaki, alredy worn by units from India and Aden in the 1884 campaign).

Thanks again, folks!



The Sudan campaign in the 1880s was indeed a time of experimental uniforms. I am interested that you say the 3rd Grenadiers are all in khaki drill, as with so many Norfolk styles on display I had first thought that they must be the grey serge.

I do not know how many units wore collar badges on their grey and khaki uniforms, but it seems certain that the Guards did. The grey tunic that I posted seems to have the collar badge of the Coldstream Guards and it is said to be contemporaneous. There are further details about it accessible via the link.



Well , Yes Frogsmile , those pleats on the officers' jackets would seem to suggest the usual Grey version of the jacket.
However most sources seem to confirm that the Guards Brigade in the 1885 eastern Sudan Campaign were possibly the first unit fully equipped in British Khaki .

Mike Snook also clearly states this in his GSITD.
Please have a look at page 197
"The Brigade of Guards turned out in stained foreign service helmets with a plain pugaree, a khaki drill frock and matching trousers worn loose over the boots.
The two suits of khaki-drill with which the guardsmen had been issued were amongst the first uniforms of that colour to be manufactured in England"....."The officer's 5 Button frocks were cut in style of the Norfolk Shooting Jacket."


However it is true that in the 1885 Eastern Sudan Campaign a mixture of Grey and Khaki was in evidence in many units.
For example, apparently the Royal Berkshires only received one set only of the new khaki jacket and trousers apiece before the campaign.
This would possibly account for the famous Fripp's painting of Tofrek showing some of the Berks. in Grey , and some in Khaki.

Ciao!

Marco
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Last edited by fantomark on 20 Jul 2012 21:51, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 21:04

As a side note, the Italian Army , which started on their ill fated colonial adventure wearing "Egyptian style" white uniforms, in 1887-1888 changed into Kahki, adopting a sort of Norfolk Jacket style .

An Italian officer (Artillery Captain Count Gioppi) was attached to Gen. Graham Staff in the 1885 Eastern Sudan Campaign, and maybe it was his reports that influenced the Italian Military Authorities into adopting a new and more practical khaki uniform as worn by the British... Who Knows..??

Attached are details of the Italian Norfolk Jacket Khaki Uniform , pattern 1887 ( for some unknow reasons the new khaki colour was officially designated by the Italians as "Light Bronze")

Ciao!

Marco
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Re: MICR officer "mistery portrait"

Postby fantomark » 20 Jul 2012 21:23

Hi!

And here is the well know photo of Gen Graham's staff at Suakin in 1885 showing dear old Gioppi (arrowed in red) in his Italian regulation white double breasted uniform with blue cross sash and pith helmet.

A very good friend of mine and keen medal collector is the lucky owner of Gioppi's Egyptian medal!

Ciao!

Marco

PS . Judging by this photo also Graham was dressed in white or in a very light khaki.
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