"Madras Volunteers'?

[jf42]

My great-grandfather was resident in Madras from c. 1872 till he returned home in 1891.

We have photographs of him from 1886-87 {EDIT} taken with the Mounted Rifles company of the Madras Volunteers, of which he was Captain. This much we know from the captions from his photograph album. The impression is that in 1886 the Mounted Rifles were a new addition to the existing volunteer corps

I have been unable to find reference to the 'Madras Volunteers' as such, only to the Madras Guards. Where would I be able to find a comprehensive list of the European Volunteer corps in the Madras Presidency? Is anybody 'up' on this?

Many thanks

JF

[Jonathan]

JF,
I found A Short History of the Madras Volunteer Guards on Google Books. I am assuming this is the same unit (so I could be wrong). What is your relative's name?

Jonathan

[FROGSMILE]

My great-grandfather was resident in Madras from c. 1872 till he returned home in 1891.

We have photographs of him from 1886-97 taken with the Mounted Rifles company of the Madras Volunteers, of which he was Captain. This much we know from the captions from his photograph album. The impression is that in 1886 the Mounted Rifles were a new addition to the existing volunteer corps

I have been unable to find reference to the 'Madras Volunteers' as such, only to the Madras Guards. Where would I be able to find a comprehensive list of the European Volunteer corps in the Madras Presidency? Is anybody 'up' on this?

Many thanks

JF

It seems there were only two auxiliary (or Colonial Volunteer) units in Madras, the Madras Guards (the most senior of all Indian volunteers - dating back to the mutiny) and the 'Madras Railway Volunteers' (which from 1910 became the Madras and Southern Mahratta Volunteer Rifles). I assume that the latter was your great grand father's unit.

The 1st Battalion was formed as the Madras Railway Volunteers on the 21st August 1885 and the 2nd Battalion as the Southern Mahratta Railway Rifle Corps on the 20th October 1886. Amalgamated with the Bellary Volunteer Rifle Corp, which was raised on the 24th July 1885, on the 28th January 1898. Reconstituted as the Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway Rifles on the 4th June 1910 and then the 32nd Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway Rifles on the 1st April 1917 before becoming the Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway Rifles again on the 1st October 1920.

Details as of 1901:

Headquarters - Perambore, Madras
Uniform - Khaki drill
Motto - "One and All"

Companies:

Madras
Royampur
Arkonam
Jalarpet
Bangalore
Podanur
Gooty

Detachments:

Renongunta
Cuddapah
Raichur
Salem
Calicut

Badge - Eight pointed star surmounted by a crown with a bugle encircled by a garter in the centre

Many of the volunteer units were based on railways staff, partly because of the numbers of British civilians who worked on the railway and wanted to be part of the military reserve (for various reasons, some of which can be guessed at - the uniform could be an advantage) but also because of the large numbers of Anglo/Asians who were accepted neither as British, nor as Asian, and yet who were desperate to be embraced by the establishment whose largesse (or disregard) could make such a difference to their lives. It is no coincidence that these types of unit began to be formed after the Indian Mutiny of 1857.

There are some good lists to start you off at the following links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... %281903%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Co ... ary_Forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... %281922%29

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=M ... way_Rifles

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=S ... ifle_Corps

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0928544058

http://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/docser ... F28C83ABAB

[jf42]

Thank you to you both for that impressive bank of data. The Madras Vols book I believe I have seen before, Jonathan, and I think I drew a blank. The limited search option on line doesn't turn up my namesake.

My difficulty stems from the fact that the photos are all captioned "Madras Volunteers, Mounted Infantry Company" (not 'Rifles,' my error). My g-grandfather was a meticulous writer of captions and it seems odd that neither of the units you have mentioned, Frogsmile, are mentioned specifically by name.

He worked for Parry and Co, which seems to have been to Madras what Jardine Matheson was to Hong Kong, and it seems likely that he and his fellows, being the cream of Madras 'society' (arguably) would have joined the high-status Madras Volunteer Guards. If so, why did he not write the unit's name in full, so posterity would know? Perhaps it was a studied casualness.

Here's a poor photo that still gives a sense of how they looked when they mustered with their puggarees, bandoliers and Martini-Henry carbines. Those helmets seem very smart to me. Now I think of it, there are other photos at home which probably show the cap-badge more clearly. I need to try again but with a tripod for the camera. I couldn't crop this one enough without spoiling the feel of it, so I hope the compression works.

Madras Vol M.I. Coy.zip

(208.97 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

[Jonathan]

Are you able to view the entire volume? If not, I am happy to check for his name if you are willing to share it.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you to you both for that impressive bank of data. The Madras Vols book I believe I have seen before, Jonathan, and I think I drew a blank. The limited search option on line doesn't turn up my namesake.

My difficulty stems from the fact that the photos are all captioned "Madras Volunteers, Mounted Infantry Company" (not 'Rifles,' my error). My g-grandfather was a meticulous writer of captions and it seems odd that neither of the units you have mentioned, Frogsmile, are mentioned specifically by name.

He worked for Parry and Co, which seems to have been to Madras what Jardine Matheson was to Hong Kong, and it seems likely that he and his fellows, being the cream of Madras 'society' (arguably) would have joined the high-status Madras Volunteer Guards. If so, why did he not write the unit's name in full, so posterity would know? Perhaps it was a studied casualness.

Here's a poor photo that still gives a sense of how they looked when they mustered with their puggarees, bandoliers and Martini-Henry carbines. Those helmets seem very smart to me. Now I think of it, there are other photos at home which probably show the cap-badge more clearly. I need to try again but with a tripod for the camera. I couldn't crop this one enough without spoiling the feel of it, so I hope the compression works.

The attachment Madras Vol M.I. Coy.zip is no longer available

It does seem odd that neither unit are mentioned accurately by name but on balance I think it far more likely that he would have mentioned the honour title of 'Guards' as it was unique amongst the auxiliary units - no other unit was afforded that honour. Indeed the "volunteer" part of the title was later dropped whereas with the Madras Railway Volunteers it remained a part of their title until the end of their existence. It is also notable that that unit wore khaki in all forms of dress throughout its existence, unlike the Madras Guards (see below).

Ironically a lot less seems to be recorded about the Madras Volunteer Guards in FIBIS:

Madras Guards

Originally raised as the Madras Volunteer Guards on the 2nd July 1857 and became the 1st Madras Guards on the 1st April 1917. Became the Madras Guards on the 1st October 1920.

Uniform - Blue
Facings - Scarlet
Badge - Royal arms within a garter with a crown over it and motto underneath
Motto - "Ready aye Ready"

Addendum: Intriguingly I have found a reference to Madras Infantry Volunteers together with images of their sand cast badges and these seem very close to the description given for the badge of the "Guards" and the motto on the lower part of the badge does read READY AYE READY. Scrutinising your photo I believe it might well be the badge shown on the Foreign Service Helmets. I have therefore now completely reversed my first thoughts and it seems that any other images of badges that you might have will be critical in making an ID.

[jf42]

Yes, on the face of it,that does seem more likely. When I can dig out the rest of the photos, the cap badges may be instructive. They weren't an issue when I last looked.

Jonathan, Ive sent you a PM.

[Maureene]

This link shows the Indian Volunteer Corps “Corrected to 31 December, 1912”
http://archive.org/stream/armylistjanvo ... 8/mode/2up, with the Madras Regiments starting in this link.
http://archive.org/stream/armylistjanvo ... 0/mode/2up

1912 is later than the period you are interested in, but it gives an indication of the various regiments.

The links are from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page “Auxiliary Regiments”
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=A ... _Regiments

I’m fairly sure that except in remote areas, Railway Regiments would only be for railway employees.

This 1871 link refers to the Madras Volunteers by that name, so it appears that is how it was referred to.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Q9w ... rs&f=false
Colburn's United Service Magazine and Naval and Military Journal 1871 Part 1, page 291

Cheers
Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

This link shows the Indian Volunteer Corps “Corrected to 31 December, 1912”
http://archive.org/stream/armylistjanvo ... 8/mode/2up, with the Madras Regiments starting in this link.
http://archive.org/stream/armylistjanvo ... 0/mode/2up

1912 is later than the period you are interested in, but it gives an indication of the various regiments.

The links are from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page “Auxiliary Regiments”
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=A ... _Regiments

I’m fairly sure that except in remote areas, Railway Regiments would only be for railway employees.

This 1871 link refers to the Madras Volunteers by that name, so it appears that is how it was referred to.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Q9w ... rs&f=false
Colburn's United Service Magazine and Naval and Military Journal 1871 Part 1, page 291

Cheers
Maureen

Yes, thinking about it more carefully, it makes complete sense that the Railways Corps would be confined to railways employees and, as JF42 has said, his GGF was a banker and so the Guards seems an increasingly more likely bet. The clincher will be some better pictures of the cap badges worn.

Also, as these Corps were often self funded on the part of the European volunteer, it seems very likely that only the well-to-do could provide a steed for a mounted infantry company and this would fit with the 'Guards' seemingly more elite status.

[jf42]

JF was an enthusiastic horseman and in 1886 had just finished a second stint as MFH of the Madras Hounds. It might be that the formation of a Mounted Infantry company- very cutting edge- provided a new outlet. There is a fine photo of him in uniform mounted on a lithe grey polo pony. Sadly the copy I made is terrible so that will have to wait till July as well. There is however this cropped close up but still the badge is not legible.

1886 Capt. Madras Vol. M.I. Coy copy.jpg (74.17 KiB) Viewed 1173 times

However, the good news is that I have just been informed via PM that he can definitely be associated with the Madras Guards and am looking forward to learning why.

[FROGSMILE]

JF was an enthusiastic horseman and in 1886 had just finished a second stint as MFH of the Madras Hounds. It might be that the formation of a Mounted Infantry company- very cutting edge- provided a new outlet. There is a fine photo of him in uniform mounted on a lithe grey polo pony. Sadly the copy I made is terrible so that will have to wait till July as well. There is however this cropped close up but still the badge is not legible.

The attachment 1886 Capt. Madras Vol. M.I. Coy copy.jpg is no longer available

However, the good news is that I have just been informed via PM that he can definitely be associated with the Madras Guards and am looking forward to learning why.

The circumstantial evidence for the Madras Guards grows with each piece of new information.

With regard to the cap badge, can you focus in on the helmets of the man standing at centre rear and the man seated third from the left, as they seem to be the two with the most clear impression?

It's interesting to see the substantial bandoliers necessary to carry the .455 Short Chamber Boxer Henry cartridges, I would not have wanted to ride with those bouncing around on my chest!

[jf42]

I was thinking the very same thing, then I noticed that the bandoliers were empty- perhaps they hadn't been issued with ammunition or was it simply tedious to have to charge the blighters and have them bouncing around on your chest just for a photo call?

Meanwhile, our colleague T100 has had the inspired notion of looking up the Army Lists. There he found my g-g’father’s promotion to Major in the Madras Volunteer Guards is listed in the List for 1892, by which time he had retired, as far as I can make out.

For completeness sake, Frogsmile, I include two enlargements of individuals, as requested, although they are not very clear. Oddly, the shape of the badge seems not quite right: it seems to be the inverse of the horseshoe profile of the MVG badges you have posted but one can hardly tell. Opinions may differ. However, I don't think that need affect the conclusion that the Mounted Infantry Coy was part of the Madras Volunteer Guards, after all.

Madras Vol Gds.jpg (15.65 KiB) Viewed 1156 times

Madras Vol Gds ii.jpg (18.54 KiB) Viewed 1156 times

As a footnote, I am not aware of any photographs of my g-g'father in Full Dressuniform. Is it possible that Full Dress didn’t come into use until the grand durbars of the later 1890s; the Queens Diamond Jubilee, for instance?

[FROGSMILE]

I was thinking the very same thing, then I noticed that the bandoliers were empty- perhaps they hadn't been issued with ammunition or was it simply tedious to have to charge the blighters and have them bouncing around on your chest just for a photo call?

Meanwhile, our colleague T100 has had the inspired notion of looking up the Army Lists. There he found my g-g’father’s promotion to Major in the Madras Volunteer Guards is listed in the List for 1892, by which time he had retired, as far as I can make out.

For completeness sake, Frogsmile, I include two enlargements of individuals, as requested, although they are not very clear. Oddly, the shape of the badge seems not quite right: it seems to be the inverse of the horseshoe profile of the MVG badges you have posted but one can hardly tell. Opinions may differ. However, I don't think that need affect the conclusion that the Mounted Infantry Coy was part of the Madras Volunteer Guards, after all.

The attachment Madras Vol Gds.jpg is no longer available

The attachment Madras Vol Gds ii.jpg is no longer available

As a footnote, I am not aware of any photographs of my g-g'father in Full Dressuniform. Is it possible that Full Dress didn’t come into use until the grand durbars of the later 1890s; the Queens Diamond Jubilee, for instance?

Yes, the ammunition would have been secured in an ammunition store and it would have been a 'fuss' to issue it and then charge the bandoliers only to then laboriously uncharge them, just for a photo call.

I believe the cap badges are correct as per those I posted, but in your photo it is clear (to my eyes anyway - having seen such things many times before) that they have a piece of felt (probably scarlet as per the facing colour) behind the badge to add a bit of swank and colour.

Given the longevity of the Madras Guards I think that they would have had a full dress regulated, but perhaps retained only a small pool for ceremonial and even that was probably handed down by retired members. By the mid 1880s khaki drill would have been the normal wear in undress and any expense on colourful (and expensive) items would have been reserved for Mess Dress until such time as an event like the Durbar made a 'show' necessary - they were, after all, THE senior volunteer unit and PRIMUS INTER PARES.

I hope that you will be able to secure a copy of the short history that Jonathan has referred to.

It seems that the unit also gave birth to artillery (which conjures up an awful image):

NO 3 [MADRAS] FIELD BATTERY.’THE DUKE’S OWN’

Raised on 1 January 1879, from the Madras Volunteer Guards and re designated as Madras Artillery Volunteers.. Became 2 [ Madras] Group Garrison Artillery on 1 April 1917.Constituted as II [Madras] Field Brigade ‘ The Duke’s own on 1 October 1920., the subsidiary title being conferred by H.R.H The Duke of Connaught on his visiting India to inaugurate the “Montfort” reforms in the Indian Government of the year. Reorganised as No 3 [Madras] field Battery”The Duke’s Own”in 1933.

I enclose an image of the button of the Madras Guards.

Interestingly there has been a suggestion that the 'Indian made' (Poona - now Pakistan) Patrol Jacket whose provenance has been sought on this forum might well be from the Madras Guards, as it is dark blue, has red facings and the correct 4 rows of frogging for a Line Infantry unit.

[jf42]

It seems that the unit also gave birth to artillery (which conjures up an awful image):

Not so awful if, like Minerva, 'The Duke's Own' sprung armed and booted from its father's brow.

How interesting that the mysterious Patrol Jacket should, after all that, turn out to be MVG.

I see what you mean about the badge backings. I was curious about the darker puggarees that some of the men have on their helmets. Presumably, they would have been red too. I'm guessing they are associated with rank but it occurs to me as there do not seem to be any corresponding insignia that it may just be a trick of the light and the tonal limitations of the film.

As I mentioned to Jonathan, I'm pretty sure I had a look at the MVG book some time ago but because I drew a blank, I took no notes. I would never make Detective Inspector.

[FROGSMILE]

It seems that the unit also gave birth to artillery (which conjures up an awful image):

Not so awful if, like Minerva, 'The Duke's Own' sprung armed and booted from its father's brow.

How interesting that the mysterious Patrol Jacket should, after all that, turn out to be MVG.

I see what you mean about the badge backings. I was curious about the darker puggarees that some of the men have on their helmets. Presumably, they would have been red too. I'm guessing they are associated with rank but it occurs to me as there do not seem to be any corresponding insignia that it may just be a trick of the light and the tonal limitations of the film.

As I mentioned to Jonathan, I'm pretty sure I had a look at the MVG book some time ago but because I drew a blank, I took no notes. I would never make Detective Inspector.

I have found it very interesting looking into the Madras Guards and I imagine the book is quite illuminating. It apparently covers uniforms and so might answer some of our questions. Having placed the regimental title in a search engine I found that the unit had some interesting members, including an engineer of some renown and the man who by date was your GGF commanding officer is also mentioned.

I had not noticed the contrasting colour of some of the pagris (most remiss), but looking now I think that your GGF is probably wearing scarlet and 3 of the other gentleman another colour (perhaps blue - unless it is simply a sun faded red) and I imagine that they mark the company and platoon command, although this would be very perilous, given that it would be just as apparent to the enemy. However, as you say, it might have something to do with tonal elements in the film.