Company size

[Andre Chissel]

Dear all,

I have seen that French as CIGS forced through controversial changes to infantry battalions such that they no longer comprised eight small companies commanded by captains but instead comprised four large companies commanded by majors.

What was the size of an Infantry Company during the Victorian era please ?

Andre

[zerostate]

It varied year to year depending on the army estimates, and on whether the battalion in question was home, foreign, Indian, or war service establishment. 80 to 110 is about the right variance (lower at home, higher India and war, and a little less than war for foreign IIRC), but always bear in mind that guys often did not serve with their coys like bandsmen, regimental police, pioneers etc, while still on coy strength.

Chris

[grumpy]

The majors reference is not correct: there was [to use modern jargon] fluid complementing between senior captains and majors in the four company organisation, often one major in addition to the "Senior Major" who was 2 i/c the battalion.
In the earlier organisation, the ratio of company commanders was 2 majors to 6 captains, or 3 and 5. In the 4 company org., every commander had a junior captain as his 2 i/c.

As a matter of interest, I had no idea that French forced the change through ........ if so, it would be one of the few things he got right in my opinion. Most of our possible opponents had gone over the large companies. Finally, even to this day one can hear the Foot Guards route lining and whatever refer to "half companies" ........ conservative or what?

[heliwest]

I have the roll for the 67th Foot for Afghanistan for 1878-1880 and it is written by companies. Officers have their own page and the total for the Bn is 944. Of the 8 companies G had 123 names and A 105. This list is a medal roll and not a parade state so it can be assumed that something of the order of 90-100 would have been on parade at any one time with others sick, posted or dead. E company seems to represent what we might now call HQ company with the Sgt Major (RSM), Orderly Room Sgt, Instructor in Musketry, Band Master, Drum Major, Medical Sgt and Armourer included and presumably all their assistants and clerks who are not annoted separately. Two drummers per company are shown attached to individual companie.

[FROGSMILE]

Part of the rationale in French's decision to force this reform through was to standardise with the cavalry (French was commissioned in the 8th KRIH), who had adopted a 4- Squadron (double Troop) organisation in 1892. This was considered more 'efficient', in that it made better use of both officers and SNCOs, as under the previous system once furloughs, courses and sick had been taken into consideration there were often no officers present in a company for normal routine (especially formal training), which apparently led to some abuses when only NCOs were present.

There are some very interesting articles about all this in the The United Service Journal and Naval and Military Magazine for 1893 that is available online at the FIBIS Fibiwiki :

(http://www.archive.org/stream/unitedser ... search/173).

See the article by Bt Major Hardinge in the Volume 8, 1893 edition, (page 173): "The Training and Organisation of a Company of Infantry".

Also, in the same edition, the article: "Battalion Organization" (page 247), by a (anonymous) "Captain of Infantry".

It is interesting and indicative of inherent Army conservatism that it took from 1893 to 1915 for these eminently sensible organisational changes to come into effect.

Footnote: The cavalry had for several decades organised themselves on active service as squadrons of two troops, so the 1892 reform merely regularised in barracks and peacetime routine what already took place in the field and on campaign.

[Andre Chissel]

Thank you everyone for your replies ......

I have a problem !

29 Officers and 856 men of the 1st Battalion, the Gordon Highlanders set sail for South Africa in November 1899.

I have proof of the existence of the following companies A, B, D, F, H and K of the Gordons in South Africa prior to the battle of Magersfontein and when the 1st Service volunteers arrived in April 1900, they became M Company indicating that the 1st Gordons set sail with 12 Coys - A-L.

Do the maths the numbers of men do not add up - yes they got replacements and batches of reserves but only after Magersfontein and the existence of K Coy was before Magersfontein - so I am asuming they went to war with under strength companies knowing that their numbers would be augmented.

Am I wrong ?

Help !

Thanks

Andre

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you everyone for your replies ......

I have a problem !

29 Officers and 856 men of the 1st Battalion, the Gordon Highlanders set sail for South Africa in November 1899.

I have proof of the existence of the following companies A, B, D, F, H and K of the Gordons in South Africa prior to the battle of Magersfontein and when the 1st Service volunteers arrived in April 1900, they became M Company indicating that the 1st Gordons set sail with 12 Coys - A-L.

Do the maths the numbers of men do not add up - yes they got replacements and batches of reserves but only after Magersfontein and the existence of K Coy was before Magersfontein - so I am asuming they went to war with under strength companies knowing that their numbers would be augmented.

Am I wrong ?

Help !

Thanks

Andre

Some regiments chose to have their 1st battalion with companies A to H and their 2nd battalion from I to P. A few started with I to P and then carried on and some even ran from S to Z. This has carried on into modern times when some regiments instead of having A, B, C and D, have W, X, Y, Z. Add to this mix companies from Volunteer and Militia battalions and you can have an alphabet soup.

To find out which regiment (i.e the Gordons) did what, you would need to read their official 'War Diaries', which each unit was obligated by regulations to keep (although I am unsure when this practice was first laid down as mandatory).

Companies might well have operated under strength (perhaps with only one large platoon instead of two) and by the time detached duties (such as Fmn HQ sentries, mounted infantry dets and block house guards until the Militia arrived) were taken into consideration the battalions ORBAT could be very different from what was laid down on paper.

[heliwest]

I take the point about company naming. My own Bn had A,B,Y and companies to take into account the 1st and 2nd Bns. As for size in 1899. The 2 nd Hampshires were told to get themselves out of Ireland in Nov 1899 and go hot foot to the Boer War. When they sailed in late Jan 1900 they went with 837 other ranks when the average size of a Bn was meant to be about 1000. In order to achieve the number 399 men were serving with the colours , 438 reservists were called up. Then they had to leave behind 234 young soldiers and 69 men, including 18 reservists who were unfit. The Militia were embodied and served aas a depot and quickly prepared a draft of 160 reservists to go out and called for volunteers from the militia. They sailed from Southampton ,amidst disgraceful scenes (The Times) or with wild enthusiasm (Hampshire Chronicle) and it would seem many of the reservists found time to have a few beers before they boarded as did the WAGs. On arrival most Bns then had to find a mounted infantry company and the Hampshires nominated their F company of 3 officers and 120 men which they filled up with those who had done a mounted infantry course as part of 7th mounted infantry regiment consisting of 4 companies from 14 Bde of 7th Division.They had to keep this company topped up during the was as well as contributing to 2 MI which was sent out in a rush at the beginning of the war with experienced MI men from the army as a whole. There on they replaced their casualties and time expired men throughout the war with men from the depot, either young soldiers come of age, new recruits or volunteer militia men. The 1 Gordons, I think, contributed a company to the Highland mounted infantry which would account for a gap in the company lettering.

[Andre Chissel]

Thank you gentlemen.

For a war diary I have the book 'Life of a Regiment' which is where I have obtained all of my information from and yes they did contribute a Company to the Mounted Infantry but they were volunteers from throughout the Battalion. It does seem odd but everything appears to steer towards 12 (as opposed to under strength battalions and I know this does not sound right.

As far as the story of the 2nd Hampshires is concerned, I had to smile as it is almost identical to what happened with the Gordons except they had returned from India and let half of their battalion go (their time was up and went onto the reserve list) only to be called back again about a month before sailing.

Thanks everybody for finding the time to respond to my query.

I will try and hunt down the battalion war diary for the period but methinks I have more chance of seeing the Blues winning a rugby match this season

Andre