Colour of gun carriages

[Waggoner]

We have two large (24 to 32) pounder cannons mounted on wooden gun carriages that are in a local park. The carriages are painted a medium bright shade of green. It has been suggested that the carriages would be more authentic looking if they were red. Is there a correct colour for wooden gun carriages? Any and all advice gratefully accepted.

All the best,

Gary

[colsjt65]

Royal Artillery gun carriages were grey.

6pdr Armstrong 1.jpg (202.75 KiB) Viewed 1429 times

[QSAMIKE]

Hi Gary.....

The Army carriages were painted Grey-One-Six and the Naval ones were painted Grey-One-Eight with black on the wheel spokes......

Mike

[grumpy]

what are the magic numbers please?

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning Grumpy......

Sorry I should have explained more......

Grey-One-Six is the colour Grey that you get when you mix One Gallon Black with Six Gallons of White.....

We used to use One-Two, One-Four, One-Six, One-Eight and One-Ten.......

Mike

[grumpy]

thank you: easy!

I will just use one drop to 'whatever' drops for my 25mm army!

[Peter]

Hello Waggoner.

While I agree with colsjt65 and Mike ……

What shade of grey?

“There is some dispute between different authorities regarding the colour of artillery equipment. The contemporary paintings show a dark grey colour, but modern artists seem to prefer a blue-grey. As far as can be determined during the Napoleonic period all wood and iron work of artillery equipment was painted to protect it and the brass gunes were polished when circumstances warranted but were usually left dull on campaign.

“There are several indicators that the carriages were painted; Dickson recorded in December 1809 that his brigade had been sent to Quinta Nova for just that purpose. The facilities in the Royal Carriage department included 'painters stores and sheds for the painting of carriages' and there are several references to the cost of paint colours and oil. One reference in 1812 specifically refers to gun carriages painted in a 'lead colour'. One of the few paintings to show such equipment is David Morier's 'Royal Artillery in the Low Countries'*#; this shows a darkish grey, which matches the description 'lead'.

“According to later records of 1858 when white zinc oxide had replaced white lead, all wood was painted a grey, called 'lead', later 'white lead'.”

(Franklin, CE, (as in: “British Napoleonic Uniforms”), British Napoleonic Field Artillery, Gloucestershire, The History Press / Spellmount, 2012, p 36).

After citing the (proportions and) ingredients for preparing the paint for gun carriages from the 1858 List of Changes in Artillery Materiel, Small Arms and Other Military Stores, Franklin says “Tests conducted with the relevant pigments and oils give two quite different tones of grey”. [p 38]

Rob Edgar, a Napoleonic wargamer, through a combination of his own research, consideration of Franklin’s work and discussion with Dr. Stephen Summerfield, editor of The Napoleon Series’ Smoothbore Ordnance Journal, determines these are the two tones:

untitled.JPG (4.53 KiB) Viewed 1376 times

Like Dr Summerfield, he believes the correct colour is Mid Grey.

(Napoleonic British Artillery Colour, Thursday, September 23, 2010,
http://miniaturewargames.blogspot.com/2 ... olour.html)

Now, for the kicker: Your gun may be painted the correct colour, albeit bright green seems unlikely:

“In 1861, the colour of British artillery equipment was changed to green, to make the equipment less conspicuous, but this was abandoned in December 1862, and the colour reverted to the original lead colour” [Franklin, p 38].

While ironwork was painted black, the metal ends of the shafts, the elevating mechanisms, trunnion bearing, inside of the capsquares, axletree arms, linchpins and the washers were not painted but 'kept bright' and lightly oiled. [p 38]

Franklin appears a monumental piece of research. However, among numerous favourable reviews, I have come across two criticisms ….. of the 2008 edition:

i) Edgar observes that, contrary to Franklin’s descriptions in the text of “darkish grey” and “lead”, “all the illustrations are “very, very, light grey”.

(All the passages quoted by Edgar are identical with my 2012 edition).

Edgar says that notwithstanding Summerfield advised Franklin that his light colour was due to using an ingredient not in use during the Napoleonic period, it was too late “to reflect the new information”.

ii) The other criticism (again by Summerfield) is that the horse harness depicted is not of the period, but remastered Victorian harness.

(The Miniatures Page, Topic: Accurate diagram of RHA limber?, summerfield, 28 Jul 2009, http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=175199)

I’m very interested to know whether the colour and harness in the 2012 edition is different from that of 2008.

If any member holds the 2008 edition, could they please PM me.

# Painting can be seen on The Royal Collection’s eGallery: http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGall ... il=magnify. There is a magnification facility.

Regards,

Peter

[Mark]

Dr Stephen Summerfield is a member of our sister forum - maybe worth asking his opinion?

Mark

[A.Roads]

It depends upon what era you wish to portray, I suspect that the carriages are more likely to be mid 1800s rather than early 1800? Then a good & accurate colour would be the following from "Notes on Royal Carriage Dept 1866 by G.C. Holden Assistant Superintendant of Stores"
Transcription follows:

Lead Color For painting Carriages for
Home Service

Ground White Zinc ------------ Cwt ---- 1
Lamp black ---------------------- lbs ---- 6
Oil (boiled) for grinding black -- qts-- 3
Manganese, as a drier ---------- ozs -- 3
Raw linseed oil ---------------- gals -- 3 ½
Boiled Do -- Do ----------------- “ ---- 3 ½
Turpentine -----------------------“ ------- 2
regards, Adrian.

[tabony]

Hello Waggoner.

While I agree with colsjt65 and Mike ……

What shade of grey?

“There is some dispute between different authorities regarding the colour of artillery equipment. The contemporary paintings show a dark grey colour, but modern artists seem to prefer a blue-grey. As far as can be determined during the Napoleonic period all wood and iron work of artillery equipment was painted to protect it and the brass gunes were polished when circumstances warranted but were usually left dull on campaign.

“There are several indicators that the carriages were painted; Dickson recorded in December 1809 that his brigade had been sent to Quinta Nova for just that purpose. The facilities in the Royal Carriage department included 'painters stores and sheds for the painting of carriages' and there are several references to the cost of paint colours and oil. One reference in 1812 specifically refers to gun carriages painted in a 'lead colour'. One of the few paintings to show such equipment is David Morier's 'Royal Artillery in the Low Countries'*#; this shows a darkish grey, which matches the description 'lead'.

“According to later records of 1858 when white zinc oxide had replaced white lead, all wood was painted a grey, called 'lead', later 'white lead'.”

(Franklin, CE, (as in: “British Napoleonic Uniforms”), British Napoleonic Field Artillery, Gloucestershire, The History Press / Spellmount, 2012, p 36).

After citing the (proportions and) ingredients for preparing the paint for gun carriages from the 1858 List of Changes in Artillery Materiel, Small Arms and Other Military Stores, Franklin says “Tests conducted with the relevant pigments and oils give two quite different tones of grey”. [p 38]

Rob Edgar, a Napoleonic wargamer, through a combination of his own research, consideration of Franklin’s work and discussion with Dr. Stephen Summerfield, editor of The Napoleon Series’ Smoothbore Ordnance Journal, determines these are the two tones:

The attachment untitled.JPG is no longer available

Like Dr Summerfield, he believes the correct colour is Mid Grey.

(Napoleonic British Artillery Colour, Thursday, September 23, 2010,
http://miniaturewargames.blogspot.com/2 ... olour.html)

Now, for the kicker: Your gun may be painted the correct colour, albeit bright green seems unlikely:

“In 1861, the colour of British artillery equipment was changed to green, to make the equipment less conspicuous, but this was abandoned in December 1862, and the colour reverted to the original lead colour” [Franklin, p 38].

While ironwork was painted black, the metal ends of the shafts, the elevating mechanisms, trunnion bearing, inside of the capsquares, axletree arms, linchpins and the washers were not painted but 'kept bright' and lightly oiled. [p 38]

Franklin appears a monumental piece of research. However, among numerous favourable reviews, I have come across two criticisms ….. of the 2008 edition:

i) Edgar observes that, contrary to Franklin’s descriptions in the text of “darkish grey” and “lead”, “all the illustrations are “very, very, light grey”.

(All the passages quoted by Edgar are identical with my 2012 edition).

Edgar says that notwithstanding Summerfield advised Franklin that his light colour was due to using an ingredient not in use during the Napoleonic period, it was too late “to reflect the new information”.

ii) The other criticism (again by Summerfield) is that the horse harness depicted is not of the period, but remastered Victorian harness.

(The Miniatures Page, Topic: Accurate diagram of RHA limber?, summerfield, 28 Jul 2009, http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=175199)

I’m very interested to know whether the colour and harness in the 2012 edition is different from that of 2008.

If any member holds the 2008 edition, could they please PM me.

# Painting can be seen on The Royal Collection’s eGallery: http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGall ... il=magnify. There is a magnification facility.

Regards,

Peter

I don't want to hijack this thread but just a bit on the saddlery. From what I've gathered (and there's not much) the early Victorian artillery (and transport) harness is very close to the Napoleonic. According to Maj. Tylden the Hungarian saddle without fans or burs, was used until replaced by the 1856 wood arch U.P. The traces were rope and hooked directly to the collar without the chain and the blinkers were much more rounded. The harness was changed from black to brown in 1853. The harness of the kettle drum carriage appears to be very similar to that still used on the Windsor greys by the Royal Mews.(if it ain't bust...) I would be very interested if anyone has more information.

Martin

[Peter]

Picking up on Adrian’s points and adding comments of Stephen Summerfield over the last day:

i) Adrian’s 1866 ‘recipe’ is, of course, identical with the 1858 List of Changes in Artillery Materiel, Small Arms and Other Military Stores ‘recipe’ cited in (Franklin, 2012, p 38 /) http://miniaturewargames.blogspot.com.a ... olour.html ..... which notes:

"The above ingredients are carefully incorporated and strained through a wire sieve to make 197lb. For tropical climates, where a lighter colour is required, the lampblack is reduced to 1lb mixed with one pint of boiled oil".

ii) In both Rob Edgar’s blog and today, Dr Summerfield (Chemistry Fellow, Loughborough University) advises:

“(Before 1858) White lead was used which is not as tinctually strong as zinc oxide that was used in the mid-19th century Assuming the same recipe then it would come out as mid grey rather than light grey.

“Also white lead forms the black lead sulphide upon exposure to sulphurous atmosphere so it is likely to darken”.

iii) The Mid Grey (illustrated by Rob Edgar) is what Stephen Summerfield and Rob Edgar believe was the colour of RA vehicles until 1858.

iv) Post 1858, zinc oxide was used in place of white lead ….. consequently

“The 1858 colour would have been lighter than the Napoleonic colour if the recipe was the same”.

v) “The other problem was probably titanium oxide has been used in the modern paints that came into use post WWII and this is what we see the replica carriages painted in”.


Regards,

Peter

[Waggoner]

My thanks to all of you for your replies and information! I was at the Halifax Citadel this week. The re-enactors depict the 1869-1872 period. Their gun carriages are painted a dark blue that I thought was actually black. So, another colour to add to the mix!

All the best,

Gary

[Peter]

Hello Martin

Haven’t a clue about the different period harnesses ….. but I think there is a bit (bad pun almost unintended) out there.

i) Franklin, 2012, has a twenty page Chapter 6: Draught and Riding Harnesses, with about fifteen illustrations; many in intricate detail;

…… but see below

ii) However, as noted above, Stephen Summerfield argues “The Franklin book has Victorian harness and so is not in period”.

(http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=175199);

iii) It seems this matter can be resolved. In the thread Stephen Summerfield says

“Accurate plans of the Desaguliers Limber, harness and block-trail can be found in S Summerfield (2009) Dupin's British Napoleonic Artillery, DP&G Publishing, Doncaster”.

In recent correspondence, he cited the original work:

Dupin, Military Force of Great Britain during the Napoleonic Wars, Ken Troptman, (1820 rp) 2011;

iv) He advises in the thread, and correspondence, that Victorian harness is shown in “Kiley (2004: p178) Carriage drawings of the harness dated 1870 from the Royal Carriage Department” ….. presumably:

Kiley, KF, Artillery of the Napoleonic Wars, 1792 - 1815, London, Greenhill Books, 2004,
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/ ... edir_esc=y.

v) Franklin, CE, Draught harness, Royal Horse Artillery, circa 1814, Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, Vol 82, 2004, Autumn, No 331, pp 242 – 252

“This article draws together all the existing evidence relating to shaft draft harness used by the RHA during the Napoleonic Period.

“Most reconstructions are based around the drawing of the 1870 plates of the Royal Carriage Department* which has created some anachronisms that this examination will correct” [p 242]

“Apart from minor changes this remained the standard pattern for the harness and limber until the collars of the horses were abandoned in favour of chest straps”. [p 252]

* Bibliography reference: Plates of the Royal Carriage Department, 1870

vi) War Office, Army Equipment. Part II. Artillery, compiled by Major Miller, RA, VC, London, H.M.S.O., 1864.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=dDI ... &q&f=false

“Horse Equipment” [pp 65 & 66]

“Harness of the Last Century” [p 67]

vii) Wilkinson-Latham, R, British Artillery on Land and Sea, 1790-1820, Devon: David and Charles, 1973, p 65, has the following:

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Wilkinson-Latham.JPG (42.43 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

There is no 1859 work acknowledged in the Bibliography.

There is also a copy of Guns to the Front (Peninsular War) by WB Wollen in which “The horse harness ….. is well illustrated”. [p15]

Regards,

Peter

[tabony]

Thank's for that Peter I'll take a look. What confuses me is that there seams to only be one source of drawings of Napoleonic harness (Dupin's but if he was a spy, how close was he?) All the others are based on early Victorian drawings but then Tylden and others state that there were only minor changes until until the collar was replaced by breast harness, 1890ish! (If you want a good illustration of this see Early British Quick Fireing Artillery by Len Trawin) Then the illustration you provided says that the type shown in 1859 was used from 1790 til 1820 "in brown leather" but Tylden says black until 1853, and Franklin shows black in his books. Well they never said it was easy .
Martin

[Peter]

1861>

Black & Grey.jpg (42.83 KiB) Viewed 125 times

1861 - 1862

Green.jpg (22.71 KiB) Viewed 125 times

War Office, Army Equipment. Part II. Artillery, http://books.google.com.au/books?id=dDI ... J&printsec,
(compiled by Major Miller, RA, VC), London, H.M.S.O., 1864, p 120.