Longarms: shotguns and carbines carried by British officers?

[Matt Easton]

Thanks for all the info chaps - really interesting stuff!
A slight tangent, but at the Imperial War Museum yesterday I discovered that even in WWI British Officers occasionally carried shotguns - there are two examples which were carried, one being a 12 bore pump-action and the other being an 8(!) bore side-by-side monster of a thing.

Matt

[mike snook]

Yes - there is a contradiction between Binning's account and others - most notably Burleigh's who provides the most detailed account we have of Burnaby's demise. Binning freely admits to a fleeting glance of course. Burleigh describes him fighting with his sword - and it is this account that I personally, having made serious study of Abu Klea, would tend to weight ahead of Binning. Burleigh's account is virtually a blow by blow one. After being stabbed in the throat and unhorsed, B got back to his feet and flailed about himself with his sword before being overborne in the rush. They bred 'em tough in those days eh?

That Lancaster looks a scary piece though - like a four-barrelled Verey/Very? pistol of the sort I used to carry as a platoon commander (a thousand years ago!) only firing shot rather than flares.

Regards

M

[mike snook]

Isn't 8 bore for elephants and such like? It's a whopper. Still, just as good for the beastly Hun I should think!

M

[Matt Easton]

Yes, 8 bore is massive - and it was extra long as well. Like a regular shotgun increased in size by 50% . Using shell rather than shot I think it would be fair to describe it as an elephant gun.

In regards to the conflicting account of Burnaby's demise, isn't it entirely possible that he emptied the four chambers of his Lancaster into the enemy before dropping it and drawing his sword? He would not have had time to reload after the four shots.

Matt

[mike snook]

Matt

Yes I guess that's at least a theoretical possibility - but that's not what the history we have tells us - history is seldom comprehensive - and never on a battlefield!! I would tend to think that as a mounted cavalry colonel, in executive command of the formation, or possibly of two of its faces (again accounts differ - see my Into the Jaws of the Death ) for the detail) he would be more likely to be waving a sword about - it's a symbol of rank and authority after all.

As ever

Mike

[roconn]

Ed in LA & L Braden:

Just a couple of ideas & views about Col. Fred and his trusty double-barrelled 12 bore.

Burnaby's use of a shotgun at El Teb was a smart move as a close up & personal weapon it could not have been a better choice.

Though limited to a max of 50 yards. Slugs would not have been much of an option as accuracy would certainly not have been on par with a rifled arm.

The ensuing furore over his use of a shotgun by his unctuous political opponents probably cost him his life.

The perceived notion that a 12 bore charge of large shot, (00 buck, SSG) turned his attackers into 'colanders' sounds pretty far-fetched and as for bowling people head over heels this simply does not happen.

A charge of significant sized 12 bore pellets hitting the head or any significant part of the nervous motor system the recipient just drops forthwith without a lot of prancing and dancing around.

regds

roconn

[Unknownsoldier]

Yes, 8 bore is massive - and it was extra long as well. Like a regular shotgun increased in size by 50% . Using shell rather than shot I think it would be fair to describe it as an elephant gun.

In regards to the conflicting account of Burnaby's demise, isn't it entirely possible that he emptied the four chambers of his Lancaster into the enemy before dropping it and drawing his sword? He would not have had time to reload after the four shots.

Matt

I have handled an elephant gun, much similar to earlier punt guns, it needed two to fire it at least, one hold it the other to pull the trigger and brace! I have to say shotguns loaded with the equivelant of 7 or 8 size shot cannot have been effective at stopping, they must have been using some pretty decent sized buckshot....

Tom

[Matt Easton]

Reprising this thread.. Does anyone know of any examples of officers using carbines in the mid-late 19th century? I understand that Hodson borrowed one from one of his men to execute some princes during the Mutiny, ergo he didn't have one of his own.

[Isandlwana]

Matt,

My words from another place relating to the then Brevet Colonel Henry Evelyn Wood, V.C. at the Battle of Khambula 29th March 1879.

...On the rise behind the cannon, Wood saw one of his personal escort, Private Edmund Fowler, a mounted infantryman of the 90th, trying to shoot a Zulu inDuna. Fowler complained that his Swinburn-Henry carbine was shooting high of the mark. Wood threw the carbine to his shoulder and with his first shot brought down the inDuna and then two others. He then handed the weapon back to the bemused Fowler and instructed him to aim at the feet of his targets. ...

John Y.

[mike snook]

Chaps

I believe that shotguns and carbines were pretty extensively carried by officers in the Cape Frontier Wars - I am thinking particularly of the close quarter fighting in virtual jungle warfare conditions on and around Mount Misery, Kroomie Heights, Waterkloof, Fuller's Hoek etc 1851-3. The troopers of the Cape Mounted Rifles (CMR), a part white and part 'Hottentot' unit, carried a double barrelled carbine, and I have seen references to the CMR officers carrying them too, though doubtless this would have been an unofficial arrangement. I was in Cape Town two weeks ago where there was a small exhibition of artefacts, weapons and so on relating to the CFW, and they had one of these carbines on display. As I understand it, one barrel was smoothbore for a shotgun type round and the other was rifled for a bullet. I noticed that it had external hammers, as you would expect of that period, but didn't notice if it had two triggers. I imagine it did, allowing one to select the appropriate round for the appropriate type of engagement. The good news is that I did take a photo and will be able to check when I open up the other machine.

There are so many references to officers in that campaign swanning off to shoot things that it is clear that there were many game guns around - and it would be a short step to taking shotguns into the forest to face the Xhosa. Otherwise it was a single shot muzzle loading rifle and then they were on you. At least a shotgun gave you two shots. Notwithstanding the politically inspired Burnaby furore it has never been illegal to use shotguns on the battlefield as far as I know.

Regards

Mike

[Eric CL]

Talking about the Cape Frontier Wars, I think that Captain King of the 74th indeed mentionned in his "Campaigning In Kaffirland" (published 1853 ?) that several officers were carrying hunting or 'foraging' guns.
I will try to find the quotes this WE.

Cheers
Eric

[Matt Easton]

This is great stuff, many thanks for your replies so far.
Matt

[mike snook]

Eric

I'm sure you're right....I've been dipping into King and Mckay over the past couple of weeks myself following my recent visit to the old frontier. King is an excellent read, McKay almost as good, but in a different way, and I think written some years later, whereas King published very shortly after the fact. I'm sure 53 is right. Possibly 54.

Regards

Mike

[L. Braden]

Capt. C. J. Griffiths, 61st Regt., re the princes of Delhi: "They were not shot with a carbine, but with a Colt's revolver of six chambers. The three bodies were exposed, naked, on a stone slab, in front of the Kotwali [police station], and there I saw them, remembering most distinctly two small bullet-wounds over each of the hearts." (Notes and Queries, Nov. 2, 1907.) Griffiths again, re Hodson: "He fired two shots from a Colt's revolver into each of their hearts. ... Each of the Princes had two small bullet-holes over the region of the heart, the flesh singed by gunpowder, as the shots were fired close." (A Narrative of the Siege of Delhi, 1910.) Gen. Sir Hope Grant, Hodson's friend and confidant: "Taking a revolver from his belt, with his own hand he shot the three unhappy wretches dead on the spot. ... The story as I have related it was told me by Hodson himself." (Incidents in the Sepoy War, 1873.) Also, Charles Ball, in his history of the Mutiny (1858) stated the same, based on the first eye-witness accounts. However, Lt. Macdowell, H's 2nd in command, did not state with what weapon H. did the (mis)deed. (To be cont'd.)

[L. Braden]

Hodson himself: "Seizing a carbine from one of my men, I deliberately shot them one after another." (Twelve Years of a Soldier's Life in India, 1859.) Maj. Gen. Sir Thomas Seaton, H's friend and confidant: "Hodson then, putting out his hand, and taking a carbine from one of his men, shot Mirza Moghul, and immediately after the two others." (From Cadet to Colonel, 1866.) H. was evidently armed with a carbine when he entered the tomb in which the princes had taken refuge. "He looked up calmly [at the archway balcony, which was crowded with fugitives], pointed his carbine, and said, 'The first man that moves is a dead man.' ... Note by a friend, who afterwards visited Humayoon's Tomb in company with Lieut. Macdowell." (Rev. G. H. Hodson, Twelve Years of a Soldier's Life in India, 1859.) Also, according to Gen. Crawford Chamberlain, who heard eye-witness Indian accounts of H's execution of the reputed rebel leader, Bisharut Ali: "Raising his carbine to his shoulder, Hodson deliberately aimed at his benefactor, and fired." (T. E. R. Holmes, "Hodson of Hodson's Horse," The National Review, Aug. 1884.) (To be cont'd.)