Identify Uniform

[tanyaclifford]

Hi,

Could anyone help me identify this uniform or offer any history about the regiment and where they would have fought.

I thought the increases in the trousers were interesting. Was the uniform folded and only for show or an old tradition?

Is this Victorian and am I pursuing the right forum?

Many thanks,

Tanya

[trooper]

The uniform is the tropical khaki drill universally worn in India and so without badges or collar dogs it is virtually impossible to positively identify the regiment. Frogsmile may be able to narrow the field somewhat with regard to branch of service. As to where they fought, the North West Frontier is a good bet as there was always some action going on in that area. Trooper

[Les Waring]

The photographer's studio is shown as at Subathu.

Referring to mid-Victorian times, this was near both Simla (where British troops were not usually stationed) and the highland sanitary station of Kusowlee (Kasauli), where regiments in generally poor condition after long or arduous service in the lowlands or northwest were stationed for a few years. It was normal for one 'wing' of a regiment/battalion to be at the lower altitude Subathu and the rest at Kusowlee. It's away from the Northwest Frontier but often had regiments which had recently been there or were on their way there, stationed.

I'm not an expert on photos but I'd guess that the relatively relaxed poses indicate men who were used to photography and that therefore the photo is from nearer the end of the Victorian period, if not later, than the mid-Victorian era.

Best

Les W.

[tanyaclifford]

The photographer's studio is shown as at Subathu.

Referring to mid-Victorian times, this was near both Simla (where British troops were not usually stationed) and the highland sanitary station of Kusowlee (Kasauli), where regiments in generally poor condition after long or arduous service in the lowlands or northwest were stationed for a few years. It was normal for one 'wing' of a regiment/battalion to be at the lower altitude Subathu and the rest at Kusowlee. It's away from the Northwest Frontier but often had regiments which had recently been there or were on their way there, stationed.

I'm not an expert on photos but I'd guess that the relatively relaxed poses indicate men who were used to photography and that therefore the photo is from nearer the end of the Victorian period, if not later, than the mid-Victorian era.

Best

Les W.

Thanks Les, great info. I think you are right, they do look relaxed and healthy. If it was the end of the Victorian period, were there many different regiments going through or a particular one?

Tanya

[Frogsmile]

Hi Tanya,

As said by trooper above there is very little insignia (none in fact) to go on and the KD uniform is quite standard. The type of helmet shown was called the 'Foreign Service Helmet' and it was replaced with a different pattern a few years after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, so I would date the photo to around 1900-02, although it could be a tad later or earlier. It was common for cavalry units to fit their best brass spikes and curb chains to the helmets, as seen in your photo, but that is not to say that some infantry units did not also do so.

As you know from my post at GWF (and Les above) Subathu, together with Kasauli and Dagshai, were hill depots created by the British Army in the mid-19th c for the families and some of the troops to escape to in the hot weather which was so unhealthy in the plains. They are on the ridges of wooded hills about 20 kms into the Himalayas on the road between Chandigarh and Simla. Kasauli is the major town in the area. It later became the Regimental Centre (or Depot) for the 1st and later also the 4th Gurkha Rifles.

The low-hills village of Subathu was among the first positions to be retained by the British during the course of the Gurkha Wars. This grew to become a fairly large military establishment. It was here that the ‘Nasiri Battalions’, or ‘battalions of friendlies’ from among the Gurkhas were first raised. This is still a recruiting and training centre for Gurkhas in the Indian Army.

Having looked at the postings (i.e. movements) of various regiments I have noticed that those shown as stationed at Peshawur and Umballa (both in Bengal) were often seen in contemporary photos at Subathu. From that I have concluded that these regiments went to that hill station during the hot season. I have gathered that this was something of a vacation in the sense that duties were light and so although the men followed military routine they could also participate in regimental sports and other pleasant activities in the cool climate there. It is also apparent that photographers were not slow to centre their business there in order to get good business both from the soldiers and administrators who also moved there for the so-called "season". It was a time when many parties and balls took place for the families and mothers would try and match make someone suitable for their unmarried daughters and the men would wear their best uniforms in order to look as dashing as possible. There was a kind of class or caste system to this and whereas the officers would tend to marry girls of their class, soldiers would often marry either orphans or the daughters of Anglo/Indians that largely ran the railways and low ranking clerical services throughout India.

If you had a date or some other markings from the photo it might be possible to narrow things down. For example in 1902 the 2nd Battalion of the Welsh Regiment are listed as stationed at Subathu so they are a distinct possibility for your photo.

If you are interested to read further, there is a book about the main hill station, Simla, that can be accessed online here: http://archive.org/stream/simlapastpres ... 1/mode/2up

[tanyaclifford]

Hi Tanya,

As said by trooper above there is very little insignia (none in fact) to go on and the KD uniform is quite standard. The type of helmet shown was called the 'Foreign Service Helmet' and it was replaced with a different pattern a few years after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, so I would date the photo to around 1900-02, although it could be a tad later or earlier. It was common for cavalry units to fit their best brass spikes and curb chains to the helmets, as seen in your photo, but that is not to say that some infantry units did not also do so.

As you know from my post at GWF (and Les above) Subathu, together with Kasauli and Dagshai, were hill depots created by the British Army in the mid-19th c for the families and some of the troops to escape to in the hot weather which was so unhealthy in the plains. They are on the ridges of wooded hills about 20 kms into the Himalayas on the road between Chandigarh and Simla. Kasauli is the major town in the area. It later became the Regimental Centre (or Depot) for the 1st and later also the 4th Gurkha Rifles.

The low-hills village of Subathu was among the first positions to be retained by the British during the course of the Gurkha Wars. This grew to become a fairly large military establishment. It was here that the ‘Nasiri Battalions’, or ‘battalions of friendlies’ from among the Gurkhas were first raised. This is still a recruiting and training centre for Gurkhas in the Indian Army.

Having looked at the postings (i.e. movements) of various regiments I have noticed that those shown as stationed at Peshawur and Umballa (both in Bengal) were often seen in contemporary photos at Subathu. From that I have concluded that these regiments went to that hill station during the hot season. I have gathered that this was something of a vacation in the sense that duties were light and so although the men followed military routine they could also participate in regimental sports and other pleasant activities in the cool climate there. It is also apparent that photographers were not slow to centre their business there in order to get good business both from the soldiers and administrators who also moved there for the so-called "season". It was a time when many parties and balls took place for the families and mothers would try and match make someone suitable for their unmarried daughters and the men would wear their best uniforms in order to look as dashing as possible. There was a kind of class or caste system to this and whereas the officers would tend to marry girls of their class, soldiers would often marry either orphans or the daughters of Anglo/Indians that largely ran the railways and low ranking clerical services throughout India.

If you had a date or some other markings from the photo it might be possible to narrow things down. For example in 1902 the 2nd Battalion of the Welsh Regiment are listed as stationed at Subathu so they are a distinct possibility for your photo.

If you are interested to read further, there is a book about the main hill station, Simla, that can be accessed online here: http://archive.org/stream/simlapastpres ... 1/mode/2up

Thank you, this is fantastic information. I have alot to digest and refer back to which I will do over the next few days. I wonder if my Grandfather knew the above. He was also based in India and Burma. Most of ym ancestors are from Derbshire. Were particular regiments trained to be posted to India?

Tanya

[Frogsmile]

Hi Tanya,

As said by trooper above there is very little insignia (none in fact) to go on and the KD uniform is quite standard. The type of helmet shown was called the 'Foreign Service Helmet' and it was replaced with a different pattern a few years after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, so I would date the photo to around 1900-02, although it could be a tad later or earlier. It was common for cavalry units to fit their best brass spikes and curb chains to the helmets, as seen in your photo, but that is not to say that some infantry units did not also do so.

As you know from my post at GWF (and Les above) Subathu, together with Kasauli and Dagshai, were hill depots created by the British Army in the mid-19th c for the families and some of the troops to escape to in the hot weather which was so unhealthy in the plains. They are on the ridges of wooded hills about 20 kms into the Himalayas on the road between Chandigarh and Simla. Kasauli is the major town in the area. It later became the Regimental Centre (or Depot) for the 1st and later also the 4th Gurkha Rifles.

The low-hills village of Subathu was among the first positions to be retained by the British during the course of the Gurkha Wars. This grew to become a fairly large military establishment. It was here that the ‘Nasiri Battalions’, or ‘battalions of friendlies’ from among the Gurkhas were first raised. This is still a recruiting and training centre for Gurkhas in the Indian Army.

Having looked at the postings (i.e. movements) of various regiments I have noticed that those shown as stationed at Peshawur and Umballa (both in Bengal) were often seen in contemporary photos at Subathu. From that I have concluded that these regiments went to that hill station during the hot season. I have gathered that this was something of a vacation in the sense that duties were light and so although the men followed military routine they could also participate in regimental sports and other pleasant activities in the cool climate there. It is also apparent that photographers were not slow to centre their business there in order to get good business both from the soldiers and administrators who also moved there for the so-called "season". It was a time when many parties and balls took place for the families and mothers would try and match make someone suitable for their unmarried daughters and the men would wear their best uniforms in order to look as dashing as possible. There was a kind of class or caste system to this and whereas the officers would tend to marry girls of their class, soldiers would often marry either orphans or the daughters of Anglo/Indians that largely ran the railways and low ranking clerical services throughout India.

If you had a date or some other markings from the photo it might be possible to narrow things down. For example in 1902 the 2nd Battalion of the Welsh Regiment are listed as stationed at Subathu so they are a distinct possibility for your photo.

If you are interested to read further, there is a book about the main hill station, Simla, that can be accessed online here: http://archive.org/stream/simlapastpres ... 1/mode/2up

Were particular regiments trained to be posted to India?

Tanya

No Tanya, all regiments took turn on a rota to serve in India. The majority of regiments had two battalions and one would serve at Home and one would serve Overseas (or 'Foreign' service as it was known) as a garrison unit within the Empire. After 10 to 15 years (often longer) the battalions would swap around. The battalions overseas were established to be larger than those at home.

A very few regiments had four battalions but the same principle applied, two would be at home and two overseas. The Home battalions were responsible for training up drafts of men to reinforce the overseas battalion(s) at periodic intervals.

This arrangement began in 1881 as part of Army reforms, before that it was less clear cut as the first 25 regiments only, had two battalions, and the remainder one, which made things less easy to organise in an equitable way.

[grumpy]

Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders not on a rota for India? I think they were a single-battalion regiment?

The soldiers have minimum 3 or possibly 2 years Good Conduct [period changed]. I completely agree dating ......... not later than c. 1906 anyway [headdress and frock design]. They look like infantry to me, but
a. its just a gut feeling and
b. the odds are heavily in favour!

[Frogsmile]

Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders not on a rota for India? I think they were a single-battalion regiment?

The soldiers have minimum 3 or possibly 2 years Good Conduct [period changed]. I completely agree dating ......... not later than c. 1906 anyway [headdress and frock design]. They look like infantry to me, but
a. its just a gut feeling and
b. the odds are heavily in favour!

Yes, there is always an exception and the Camerons were initially the only single battalion regiment under the new Territorial system of 1881. However this was a relatively short lived situation and eventually another battalion was formed so that the Camerons could function in the same way as other regiments of the Line, as described above. Had they not done so it seems they would have been 'stuck' abroad, having been overseas (Gibraltar) since 1879 and in Egypt by 1882.

I agree that infantry would be the most likely provenance for the OPs photo.

[Maureene]

For general background, the FIBIS Fibiwiki has pages Subathu and Kasauli
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Subathu
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Kasauli

In the area, at Sanawar, close to Kasauli , was the Lawrence Military Asylum, for both boys and girls, established by Sir Henry Lawrence, of Indian Mutiny fame. The FIBIS Fibiwki page is
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=L ... 2C_Sanawar

Some of the children were orphans, but many were not. Referring to Frogsmile’s comments above, most of the girls, when reaching a suitable age, would have married soldiers.

Cheers
Maureen

[Albert J]

In addition to the above provided information I would add that these sitters are very likely infantry. The khaki frocks are void of shoulder chains, and the the hooks they would attach to. They wear shoes and trousers as opposed to breeches, gaiters, chapes and spurs.

AlbertJ

[tanyaclifford]

For general background, the FIBIS Fibiwiki has pages Subathu and Kasauli
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Subathu
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Kasauli

In the area, at Sanawar, close to Kasauli , was the Lawrence Military Asylum, for both boys and girls, established by Sir Henry Lawrence, of Indian Mutiny fame. The FIBIS Fibiwki page is
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=L ... 2C_Sanawar

Some of the children were orphans, but many were not. Referring to Frogsmile’s comments above, most of the girls, when reaching a suitable age, would have married soldiers.

Cheers
Maureen

Thanks, just read some of this now. I was surprised to read that family were with the stationed men. Was this normal or only for the select? I feel a trip to the British Library coming on.