Uniform ID please

[coldstreampaul]

Hello Forum members,
Can anyone help with an ID please.
Firstly I apologise if this group is not British, it has me stumped.
Struggling with the badge and titles and am unable to speculate on a date.
Would be grateful for any comments and information please.

Regards
Paul

[grumpy]

British

India pre-c. 1905 [headdress and frock style}. Not much after 1902, cypher is VR.

Fusiliers of some sort {surely too scruffy for GG, and the grenade looks wrong]

If I knew anything about officers' cap badges I could do better ......... perhaps RF?

I am more intrigued by what the group IS!

Orderly Room staff?

QM staff?

Regimental Police [they all seem tall} The officer has strapped trousers, suggesting he is mounted

The campaign ribbons, given the problems with ortho. film, don't help a lot, and the men are bereft.

Will ferret around when I get to my sources but expect someone will save me the trouble!

[Frogsmile]

Hello Forum members,
Can anyone help with an ID please.
Firstly I apologise if this group is not British, it has me stumped.
Struggling with the badge and titles and am unable to speculate on a date.
Would be grateful for any comments and information please.

Regards
Paul

An intriguing photo and insignia is not that clear, but on balance I believe that the other ranks are fusiliers. Certainly the Sergeant is a fusilier and it might just be that the men are not wearing collar badges because they have grenades on their shoulder straps. The collar badge of the Sergeant looks as if it is either Royal Fusiliers or Northumberland Fusiliers.

The pagri badge of the officer is unusual and looks as if it is the post 1881 badge laid down for the glengarry, which by the time of the photograph had been replaced by the Torin or Austrian Field Cap, in which a collar badge was usually worn. The officers badges of rank are accompanied by a large shoulder title and identification of this latter's configuration will enable us to confirm his regiment, which does not seem to be fusiliers.

Can you focus in and provide a close up of the best view of the Sergeant's collar badge and the right hand side shoulder title of the officer? Also the buttons of both men, as they appear to be regimental.

I believe the officer is a captain (2 rank stars before 1902) and with strapped overalls and spurs he is almost certainly the Adjutant, who had the status of a Field Officer by virtue of his appointment. As such he might well be sitting with his Orderly Room Sergeant and Staff. I would date the photo to 1895-1901.

[coldstreampaul]

Thank you for your observations and comments Gentlemen.
Will try and aquire a clearer image of the collar badges and post them.


Regards
Paul

[coldstreampaul]

Closer pics, best I could do I am afraid.

Regards
Paul

[grumpy]

Mr F's titles are anachronistic I fear. One piece NF 1910/1913, and one piece RF during Great War.

And whereas I agree Adjt. is best bet, all captains commanding companies were mounted for field duty. Ratio 2 or 3 majors to 6 or 5 captains, all horsed by the Queen on occasion. The horse enable OCs to observe the battlefield and travel quickly to crisis points.

[Frogsmile]

Mr F's titles are anachronistic I fear. One piece NF 1910/1913, and one piece RF during Great War.

And whereas I agree Adjt. is best bet, all captains commanding companies were mounted for field duty. Ratio 2 or 3 majors to 6 or 5 captains, all horsed by the Queen on occasion. The horse enable OCs to observe the battlefield and travel quickly to crisis points.

No need to "fear" anything Grumpy, you are of course quite correct, I was trying to show the large letters of the titles that both the Sergeant and Captain appeared to be wearing, but I should have made that clear with my text. You know very well that I am aware of the standard fusilier shoulder title configuration at that time. Interestingly the early RF titles were improvised from cut down RE titles and that seems likely to be the case here. It is also a good point re Captains commanding companies being entitled to a charger.

Going back to the OPs original query, the officer looks as if he might be Royal Engineers with an RE title, which would fit with the pagri badge, the centre of which reads VRI and is surrounded by the garter and inscription HONI SOIT QUI MAL-Y-PENSE (see image below)- which was worn by the Madras (Indian) Army Sappers and Miners who were officered by RE and supported by British NCOs for general duties.

The Sergeant can be seen to be a Royal Fusilier thanks to the larger shoulder title images posted by Paul.

For Paul: as 'best guess' this seems to be a mixed HQ staff of some kind showing the Adjutant and his supporting personnel, perhaps of an Indian Sappers and Miners unit.

The Queen’s Own Madras Sappers and Miners had their base in Bangalore. In 1890 the corps had an establishment of about 23 British officers, all of them commissioned in the Royal Engineers. R.E. officers intent on a career in India would hope to spend several years with one of the three sapper regiments – Madras, Bengal or Bombay – where they would experience regimental life and ‘soldiering’, with a chance of campaign service. Many then moved on to appointments in the Public Works Department, where they were responsible for most of the civil and military engineering projects in Victorian India; some of them might then become Garrison Engineers, or Commanding Royal Engineers in a Division.

The Madras Sappers and Miners at that time comprised ten companies with a total establishment of about 23 British officers, 65 British NCOs, 20 Indian officers, 122 Indian NCOs, 1070 Indian sappers and 118 others ranging from carpenters to bellows boys. Junior British officers were given more responsibility than in British regiments: companies were commanded by lieutenants. Promotion for officers was by seniority within the Royal Engineers, and was slow by today’s standards – captain at about the age of 31, and retirement at 55 as a lieutenant-colonel or colonel. To go beyond that rank you had to have been given ‘brevet’ or ‘army’ rank.

[coldstreampaul]

Hi Frogsmile,
Thank you very much for the detailed information, superb.

Regards
Paul