Officer's Dress For Foreign Service 1896-1902

[FROGSMILE]

I thought you might be interested to see this Cyclist's version Albert, which going by the cap I take to be around 1905-06? I know it is outside the period you are discussing, but I thought it was an interesting image to see how the wartime dress influenced post-war design, so I hope you will forgive me.

Hi Frogsmile,
No need for forgiveness, it's all uniforms. The shoulder straps appear to be piped, as does the collar and obviously the cuffs. The shoulder straps also appear to have embroidered unit designation also. I have seen maroon embroidered and piped shoulder straps before on khaki serge, minus the frock unfortunately, to the Warwickshire's. Also odd, if the time period you state is correct, the belt clasp appears to be a Victorian Crown??? Hard though to make out on my computer. My 1902 serge shows evidence of the shoulder straps being piped at one time but removed long before I obtained it. In any event my knowledge regarding post 1902 service dress is sadly lacking, and I'm only familiar enough with it to get me in trouble.
Can you share anymore information on this frock? To the best of your knowledge was this issue or experimental?
AlbertJ

I am not sure of the unit, although the uniform has the look of many of the Yeomanry uniforms that were adopted in the period after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. My assessment of date is based largely upon the cap, which I believe was adopted over the period 05-06, although I agree that the belt buckle looks Victorian. I can only surmise that it is from old stocks, I imagine there would have been less urgency to replace belt buckles than say head dress insignia.

[jf42]

Speaking from a point of view of total ignorance and I'm not sure I have followed the thread of analysis but, looking at the cyclist photograph, I see he doesn't have breast pockets. Is it possible he is wearing a late issue/model of the 1899 serge frock? What do the cuffs tell us?

[FROGSMILE]

Speaking from a point of view of total ignorance and I'm not sure I have followed the thread of analysis but, looking at the cyclist photograph, I see he doesn't have breast pockets. Is it possible he is wearing a late issue/model of the 1899 serge frock? What do the cuffs tell us?

Yes, we were looking at both the 1899 and 1902 patterns JF. In the case of the cyclist it is almost certainly a late variant of the 1899. It seems that quite a few VB and Yeomanry units (i.e. both foot and mounted), chose to dress up the rather drab khaki with coloured trim around 1906-07. It was in a sense a reaction to the move away from the colourful uniforms towards khaki, which was popular for use in the field, but not so well liked for jamborees and walking out. As there was no question by this Edwardian era of issuing two types of uniform to 'part timers', there was a typical attempt to meet both requirements in one go. It did not apply to Regulars, who at that time still had SD and blue patrols (incl ORs) when on the Home Establishment and KD/SD and Scarlet Frocks when in India, or elsewhere in the Dominions or Colonies.

[Neville_Constantine]

This is the original sealed pattern of the Officer's Khaki Frock, Drill or Serge, which appears in Plate 45, Dress Regulations for the Army, 1900.
On 5th April 1900 the coat was re-sealed after the lowering of the breast pockets (evidence of the earlier stitching is still visible).

Note the sealed sample of "Pimlico Drab Serge", which is dated 2nd April 1900.

Neville

Sealed_pattern_04_ss.jpg (264.43 KiB) Viewed 649 times

Sealed_pattern_02_s.jpg (300.48 KiB) Viewed 649 times

[Albert J]

Sweet Gregor Mendel! Nice piece Neville!
AlbertJ

[jf42]

As a footnote to this very interesting and informative thread, I was at the National War Museum in Edinburgh Castle last week (old S.U.S.M.) and, while on the way to research some C18th material, found myself looking at a sealed example of the experimental uniform of 1885. Even if I had a camera with me and had been allowed to take a picture, I suspect the protective glass would have defeated me.

What struck me was the colour of the fabric. The contemporary monochrome illustrations I have seen suggest something almost chocolate in tone whereas it is (now) a warm drab not unlike the khaki drill of the A&S Hldrs officer on page one of this thread and the Field Officer's jacket immediately below it; if anything with more brown in it unlike the yellow and green tinged of later drab. Not sure how it would compare with the 1885 drab clothing for Home Service regiments in the Sudan. The fabric is soft, more of a flannel than a serge, perhaps (not my strong point) but it seemed to have a soft, woolly pile rather than being twilled.

The crescent-shaped shoulder pads are also more subtle than contemporary images suggest; not as bulky. The cartridge loops are just daft; attached via loops of cord to buttons above and below, they were clearly not designed for someone who might actually take advantage of his camouflage uniform and fire prone from cover or move through wooded country. Those that weren't left dangling in the brush, would have been binned promptly, I suspect.

The exhibit came from the Ordnance Dept. No helmet, unfortunately. Not quite sure what it was doing in Edinburgh Castle. I can't imagine who in the Scottish regiments would have worn it unadapted but it was interesting to see.

[petercharleskennedy]

Khaki drill doublet belonging to Lt. Thomas Patrick Milne-Home, Highland Light Infantry. The doublet displays the regimental distinctions for officer's, un-pleated gauntlet cuffs with two regimental buttons to the font and one to the rear. Four 1"inch box pleats on the rear of the doublet. Short stand collar. Milne -Home was court martialed in 1902 for surrendering his position to the Boers, though later re-instated. Milne-Home's uncle was Colo. David Milne-Home of "Moonlight Charge" fame at Kassassin. Displayed with proper period officer's equipment.


AlbertJ

Nothing to do with the subject but - fascinating to see Lt Milne-Home's uniform. I have been researching Pt Charles Thomas Kennedy VC of A Company, 1st Battalion HLI. Milne-Home wrote one of the statements that led to Kennedy being recommended for the Victoria Cross at Dewetsdorp. Thanks for the opportunity for seeing his uniform.

[grumpy]

Speaking from a point of view of total ignorance and I'm not sure I have followed the thread of analysis but, looking at the cyclist photograph, I see he doesn't have breast pockets. Is it possible he is wearing a late issue/model of the 1899 serge frock? What do the cuffs tell us?

Yes, we were looking at both the 1899 and 1902 patterns JF. In the case of the cyclist it is almost certainly a late variant of the 1899. It seems that quite a few VB and Yeomanry units (i.e. both foot and mounted), chose to dress up the rather drab khaki with coloured trim around 1906-07. It was in a sense a reaction to the move away from the colourful uniforms towards khaki, which was popular for use in the field, but not so well liked for jamborees and walking out. As there was no question by this Edwardian era of issuing two types of uniform to 'part timers', there was a typical attempt to meet both requirements in one go. It did not apply to Regulars, who at that time still had SD and blue patrols (incl ORs) when on the Home Establishment and KD/SD and Scarlet Frocks when in India, or elsewhere in the Dominions or Colonies.

Unfortunately I do not hold relevant VF regs for 1900 to 1908, but TF Regs 1908 specify "2 suits of clothing", one to be SD, and the other for walking out "tunic or frock". In context these latter were clearly scarlet for the Line, and Sgts were to wear the sash therewith.

[FROGSMILE]

Speaking from a point of view of total ignorance and I'm not sure I have followed the thread of analysis but, looking at the cyclist photograph, I see he doesn't have breast pockets. Is it possible he is wearing a late issue/model of the 1899 serge frock? What do the cuffs tell us?

Yes, we were looking at both the 1899 and 1902 patterns JF. In the case of the cyclist it is almost certainly a late variant of the 1899. It seems that quite a few VB and Yeomanry units (i.e. both foot and mounted), chose to dress up the rather drab khaki with coloured trim around 1906-07. It was in a sense a reaction to the move away from the colourful uniforms towards khaki, which was popular for use in the field, but not so well liked for jamborees and walking out. As there was no question by this Edwardian era of issuing two types of uniform to 'part timers', there was a typical attempt to meet both requirements in one go. It did not apply to Regulars, who at that time still had SD and blue patrols (incl ORs) when on the Home Establishment and KD/SD and Scarlet Frocks when in India, or elsewhere in the Dominions or Colonies.

Unfortunately I do not hold relevant VF regs for 1900 to 1908, but TF Regs 1908 specify "2 suits of clothing", one to be SD, and the other for walking out "tunic or frock". In context these latter were clearly scarlet for the Line, and Sgts were to wear the sash therewith.

Yes, I think we have discussed this before, albeit in connection with some other thread. I do wonder whether these 'tunics' were ever widely issued in this later period (1908 plus) as in a section within the QueensSurreys website a contemporary account refers to tunics being replaced by frocks that were then worn for parades and other 'smart' events. I think then that these latter might have been held at the drill hall, rather than at the man's home (although that is pure speculation), where better control could be maintained by harassed quartermasters of scarce scarlet uniforms at a time when khaki was becoming omnipresent. I have noticed that many photos of TF men in walking-out-dress from this late period seem to show them in SD, apart from when at annual camp, when an effort seems to have been made to issue tunics, or frocks (perhaps for unit photographs). This is not always the case of course (as units were and still are notorious for squirreling things away), but it does appear quite frequently and perhaps reflects the increasing premium placed by unit QMs on scarlet uniforms following the widespread adoption of khaki.

[trooper]

With reference to the cyclist's uniform yeomanry units can be ruled out as those who had coloured trim on the cuffs had either a trefoil or, in some cases, an Austrian knot at the point. See "Uniforms of the Yeomanry Cavalry 1901-1914" by Smith and Knight. Trooper

[FROGSMILE]

With reference to the cyclist's uniform yeomanry units can be ruled out as those who had coloured trim on the cuffs had either a trefoil or, in some cases, an Austrian knot at the point. See "Uniforms of the Yeomanry Cavalry 1901-1914" by Smith and Knight. Trooper

Yes I agree. I was not suggesting that he was a Yeoman. If anything I imagined he was a Rifle Volunteer, but then again even they generally wore Austrian knots as a distinguishing mark. I have no idea what unit the Cyclist was in and he remains an enigma.

[trooper]

With reference to the cyclist's uniform yeomanry units can be ruled out as those who had coloured trim on the cuffs had either a trefoil or, in some cases, an Austrian knot at the point. See "Uniforms of the Yeomanry Cavalry 1901-1914" by Smith and Knight. Trooper

Yes I agree. I was not suggesting that he was a Yeoman. If anything I imagined he was a Rifle Volunteer, but then again even they generally wore Austrian knots as a distinguishing mark. I have no idea what unit the Cyclist was in and he remains an enigma.

Pursuing the Rifle Volunteer theory I consulted my (far from complete) volunteer files and the only one I could find that conformed to the uniform shown, ie no pockets and trimmed pointed cuff without embellishment was the 20th Middlesex. I am sure that there must be others concealed in the gaps in my collection but it is a starting point for further research. Trooper

[FROGSMILE]

With reference to the cyclist's uniform yeomanry units can be ruled out as those who had coloured trim on the cuffs had either a trefoil or, in some cases, an Austrian knot at the point. See "Uniforms of the Yeomanry Cavalry 1901-1914" by Smith and Knight. Trooper

Yes I agree. I was not suggesting that he was a Yeoman. If anything I imagined he was a Rifle Volunteer, but then again even they generally wore Austrian knots as a distinguishing mark. I have no idea what unit the Cyclist was in and he remains an enigma.

Pursuing the Rifle Volunteer theory I consulted my (far from complete) volunteer files and the only one I could find that conformed to the uniform shown, ie no pockets and trimmed pointed cuff without embellishment was the 20th Middlesex. I am sure that there must be others concealed in the gaps in my collection but it is a starting point for further research. Trooper

Yes, well spotted Trooper, I think you definitely have it! It also shows the uniform to be grey and not khaki. He is no longer an 'enigma', but a member of the 20th Middlesex and very shortly to become a part of the London Regiment (as the Artist's Rifles battalion). The peaked forage cap that he is wearing marks him out to a very precise period, as it had replaced the pill box cap previously worn.

[jf42]

How satisfying! The Volunteer theme keeps throwing up som interesting discussions. I am learning a great deal (Forgetting most of it).

I am curious about the top gentleman in Frogsmile's previous post. What is that wrapped en banderole over his left shoulder? It can't be a greatcoat, surely, and it seems too thin even to be a blanket. Is it a cape?

[Albert J]

[/quote] petercharleskennedy

Nothing to do with the subject but - fascinating to see Lt Milne-Home's uniform. I have been researching Pt Charles Thomas Kennedy VC of A Company, 1st Battalion HLI. Milne-Home wrote one of the statements that led to Kennedy being recommended for the Victoria Cross at Dewetsdorp. Thanks for the opportunity for seeing his uniform.[/quote]


Not off topic at all petercharleskennedy. In fact, I'd be obliged if you could share the statement.
The Milne-Home frock is one of three I have belonging to Lt. Thomas Patrick Milne-Home and stand as a testament to officer's adopting the appearance of the ranks during the 2nd Anglo Boer War. Though I cannot say with any certainty which frock he was wearing when, I would venture this opinion: The officer's khaki cotton drill doublet was probably worn when he arrived in South Africa with the regiment in 1899. I suspect then with the mounting officer casualties stemming from accurate Boer marksmanship, he opted for the other ranks khaki drill frock, with the addition of pockets added to the skirt. I believe this could have been the frock he was wearing when he was wounded and surrendered his position at Dewetsdorp 23 November 1900. An action he would later be Court Martialed for and dismissed from service January 29, 1901. He was however exonerated, reinstated, and promoted Captain in April 1901. I believe the other ranks 1899 pattern serge frock could have been worn at the Court Martial as it is in the best condition of the three.

James