Help identifying uniform, regiment and rank

[Jvdub]

Hello,
This gent is my wife's g-g-gf. The regimental badge on the shoulder belt looks like a grenade but I know little about this. I am guessing this is 1860s or 1870s, but I am guessing.
Thanks!

[jf42]

While a more authoritative answer comes down the line- It's not a grenade but a thistle. The Saint Andrew's Cross and Star on the helmet show this to be a Scottish subject. The cross belt and whistle with green frogged jacket would suggest a Rifle unit and the rather Russian-looking plumed, leather helmet suggests a Volunteer battalion. I have seen headgear like that before on another forum. While I check, I'll leave you with the possibility of a connection with Ayrshire or Lanarkshire. Does that ring a bell?

[FROGSMILE]

Bizarrely this officer also has his pouch belt across the wrong shoulder and yet the sword is correctly worn.
Having reviewed the uniforms of Scottish Rifle Volunteers (http://www.scottishmilitaryresearch.org.uk/page22.htm) I cannot find any provenance for the uniform shown.
The helmet looks more like the style adopted by some yeomanry regiments and the frogged patrol jacket was worn by mounted as well as rifle regiments.
The closest helmet I have seen to this design was worn by the Fife Light Horse Volunteers.

The Fife Mounted Rifle Volunteer Corps was proposed by James Earl of Rosslyn in March 1860 and after some months of organisation by Captain Anstruther Thomson was officially recognised on the 7th June. The Corps was made up of 4 troops with headquarters of the Brigade at Cupar.

Cupar - Captain John Anstruther Thomson
St. Andrews - Captain John Whyte-Melville
Kirkcaldy - Captain James Townsend Oswald
Dunfermline - Captain Sir Peter Arthur Halkett

In 1870 the designation of the regiment was changed to the Fife Light Horse. Colonel Thomson in the history of the Fife Light Horse says:-

"Having repeatedly applied for carbines without success, and having always received the answer that short Enfields were 'the arms for mounted riflemen,' it occurred to me to apply to have our designation changed to Light Horse. This would have the advantage that we should take rank as cavalry, whereas the artillery take precedence of mounted rifles; and also the minimun establishment for Light Horse is 144 for four troops, instead of 172, and would relieve us of threatening letters from the War Office in consequence of the regiment being under the authorised strength. I therefore ordered a board to assemble, and proposed to them to make the necessary application to that effect."

In 1876 the 1st Forfar Light Horse, one troop, was attached to the regiment for training and administration although in the beginning they had trouble finding an officer as "farmers don't think they are right without 'a Laird' at their head". A fifth troop was added in 1883 based at Perth.

It seems possible that the uniform in the photograph is that adopted after the regiment became designated as mounted rifles. I estimate the date to be late 1880s to early 1890s.

[jf42]

Yes, the penny had just dropped for me re: the pouch belt, Frogsmile. We have been tracking through the same archives and come to similar conclusions.

However, although the Fife Light Horse Volunteers adopted a plumed leather helmet, the badge was different, having a massive saltire with the image of a medieval Thane of Fife imposed and a scroll curling off at either side. Moreover, despite being Rifles, from the beginning the proud gudemen of the rank and file insisted on being uniformed in scarlet so as not to "look like millers" (Their predecessors, the Fife Fencible Cavalry (in which my ancestor served), had complained in the 1790s of having to wear red rather than blue of the regular light dragoons ).

The helmet badge is also not right for either the Ayrshire or Lanarkshire Yeomanry either, so I was off beam there. A close-up of the helmet plate or the belt might help. The plumed leather helmet would definitely seem to be a Yeomanry pattern. To be infantry he would either be wearing a shako, Rifle 'busby' or a cloth-covered Home Service helmet, would he not?

Intriguing. At least we know we're north of the Border.

I had placed the photo a little earlier but now I am less sure. The lack of facial hair might limit the earliest date to the mid to late 1870s - although he seems a very young man by the look of him. Still, one would expect to see an attempt at side-whiskers for the early 1870s.

[Jvdub]

Thank you very much, gentlemen. This is terrific.

I should add that the young man's name was James Lees. And that the studio embossed on the bottom of the photo was McManus.

I asked my father-in-law if he had any further information. This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say is that the Lees family was connected with the Mull of Kintyre and the area of Ballantrae in Ayrshire. The two places are not distant from each other by water, and I know that when my grandfather Robert Lees was young he lived near Campbelltown in Argyleshire and when his parents died he moved to his grand[arents in Ballantrae. That does not mean that James had the same experience, but it does mean that an Ayrshire connection is quite probable."

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you very much, gentlemen. This is terrific.

I should add that the young man's name was James Lees. And that the studio embossed on the bottom of the photo was McManus.

I asked my father-in-law if he had any further information. This is what he said:

"The only thing I can say is that the Lees family was connected with the Mull of Kintyre and the area of Ballantrae in Ayrshire. The two places are not distant from each other by water, and I know that when my grandfather Robert Lees was young he lived near Campbelltown in Argyleshire and when his parents died he moved to his grand[arents in Ballantrae. That does not mean that James had the same experience, but it does mean that an Ayrshire connection is quite probable."

J McManus first appears in the trade directories at 13 High Street in 1884. His cartes de visite from this period say:

"Portrait and Landscape Photographs
from the studio of J McManus
13 High Street (beside John Knox House) Edinburgh
Established 1852"

John McManus was listed in the 1881 census as:

Photographer: aged 47
Born: Ireland
Resident: 28, Ashley Terrace, Edinburgh
Wife: Sarah

I am wondering now if it is an Edinburgh regiment of yeomanry as gentlemen of the period photographed in uniform would not generally want to travel too far to have their photographs taken.

A possible unit might be the Royal Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry who existed from 1797 to 1871
The Royal Edinburgh Volunteer Light Dragoons and the Midlothian Yeomanry were united in one regiment of six troops in 1800. In 1837 all the Scottish Yeomanry Corps (except for the Ayrshire and Lancashire Regiments) were disbanded. The Royal Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry was re-raised in 1843 and eventually ceased to exist in 1871.

In the Napoleonic period the unit wore a brass helmet with red plume and the badge on the front seems similar to that on the leather helmet of our subject.

I realise this would date the photograph to around 1870 so this suggestion is made only tentatively, although it is possible I suppose that the image comes from the time of the regiments reformation in 1880 (see red text below), which seems more likely. That said it seems that this latter regiment wore a metal helmet more like that of today's Horse Guards so things are still not clearcut.

1797: Sir Walter Scott forms the Royal Edinburgh Volunteer Light Dragoons. The Duke of Buccleuch forms the East Lothian Yeomanry Cavalry.

1800: Dragoons merge with the Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry, becomes the Royal Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry.

1838: Both Yeomanry regiments are disbanded.

1846: East Lothian Yeomanry Cavalry reformed.

1848: Royal Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry reformed. East Lothian Yeomanry raises a third troop in Berwickshire.

1872: Royal Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry disbanded again. Seven years later, it reforms again - but this time it amalgamates with the East Lothian & Berwickshire Yeomanry Cavalry.

MEMORANDUM

Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to approve the services of the Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and men of the Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry being dispensed with; this Regiment having failed to enrol a sufficient number of men to entitle it to be borne on the strength of the revised establishment for Yeomanry, approved by Her Majesty in April, 1870. Dated 5th October 1872.

Late Midlothian Yeomanry Cavalry

Lieutenant-Colonel-Commandant the Earl of Morton,
Lieutenant-Colonel the Earl of Dalkeith,
Major B. W. Ramsay,
Captain Sir William Baillie, Bart.,
Captain William Gillon,
Captain James Forman

[Jvdub]

The thistle badge on the incorrectly-worn pouch belt is certainly very similar to helmet badge of the Midlothian Yeomanry. Based on all of these suggestions, in particular those related to dates, we are now thinking that this in not my wife's g-g-gf, but rather his son, also named James. My wife's g-gf was born in 1860; this then must be his brother and likely born within two years of 1860. I have another photo -- not very good quality -- and I believe it to be of the same fellow some years later. He has facial hair and a bowler hat (cropped out).

[jf42]

I had a look at Scottish regimental badges, 1793-1971,(Bloomer 1973) this afternoon and the Lothian connection would seem to be strong.

(pp 3-4) Badges of the Royal Scots (Lothian) Regiment post-1881 generally show a saltire and star in the same format as on the leather helmet. The officers badge shows a thistle within a circlet- 'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit' and ORs, St Andrew with cross upon a saltire and star within a circlet 'Lothian.'

The Midlothian and Peebles Rifle Volunteers in 1886-88 had a similar badge.

Interestingly, between 1817-27 the Ayrshire Yeomanry (p.40) also had St Andrew on a saltire and star within a circlet 'Ayrshire Yeomanry'.
(Similarly, a little later the Fifeshire Yeomanry, between 1831-37, had a similar format badge, but elongated on its vertical axis with the monogram 'GR' above the Roman numeral 'IV'-)

All those badges look more similar to James Lees' helmet plate badge than the Royal Midlothians' helmet badge with its attenuated arms of the Saltire. However, I have the impression that the points of the star in Lees badge, rather than being rayed as in the Royal Scots family of badges, are stepped like the star of the Black Watch regimental badge. I may be wrong there. If I am right, I still don't know what that tells us.

Sadly, the centre of the helmet badge and the letter on the circlet are too burned out to read at this magnification.

[Stuart_Bates]

I would suggest that the unit is the Lothian and Berwickshire Yeomanry and attach a scan of their helmet plate from K & K. I also asked a friend in Scotland, who collects only Scottish militaria, and this is also his opinion.

Stuart

Lothian and Berwickshire Yeomanry.jpeg (67.75 KiB) Viewed 1515 times

[Stuart_Bates]

Here is a closeup of the Lothian & Berwickshire Yeomanry helmet plate on the 1871 style helmet.

Stuart

L&BY.jpg (38.99 KiB) Viewed 1505 times

[FROGSMILE]

I would suggest that the unit is the Lothian and Berwickshire Yeomanry and attach a scan of their helmet plate from K & K. I also asked a friend in Scotland, who collects only Scottish militaria, and this is also his opinion.

Stuart

Lothian and Berwickshire Yeomanry.jpeg

Well done Stuart, I did anticipate that you would be the soloution to this, as the helmet was always going to be the key. I am pleased that my suspicion as highlighted in the red text (but it was only a narrowed down theory) turned out to be correct.

Can you narrow down the date more precisely based upon the helmet in the OP's photo? Am I right in thinking it is the reformed regiments helmet from around 1881?

[t100]

I generally think this is the resort of the desperate, but I would suggest the uniform in this photo is a mock-up.

The identification of the helmet looks spot-on - I believe the leather helmet used by the Lothians and Berwickshire Yeomanry changed to the more standard white metal variety about 1888?

The uniform bears no resemblance to the L&BY uniform, which consisted of scarlet jacket with gold/yellow lace. This looks like a rifles' officer's tunic, rather than a patrol jacket. The Austrian knot on the cuff has a row of 'eyes' around the outside, suggesting a rank of captain, but there appear to be no matching rank badges. The shoulder straps strongly suggest a date after 1880, but the cut of the tunic is very loose for this period. Wearing a waist belt over this particular pattern of frogged tunic would be against regulations (although not unknown for volunteers). His shoulder belt is worn over the wrong shoulder.

[FROGSMILE]

I generally think this is the resort of the desperate, but I would suggest the uniform in this photo is a mock-up.

The identification of the helmet looks spot-on - I believe the leather helmet used by the Lothians and Berwickshire Yeomanry changed to the more standard white metal variety about 1888?

The uniform bears no resemblance to the L&BY uniform, which consisted of scarlet jacket with gold/yellow lace. This looks like a rifles' officer's tunic, rather than a patrol jacket. The Austrian knot on the cuff has a row of 'eyes' around the outside, suggesting a rank of captain, but there appear to be no matching rank badges. The shoulder straps strongly suggest a date after 1880, but the cut of the tunic is very loose for this period. Wearing a waist belt over this particular pattern of frogged tunic would be against regulations (although not unknown for volunteers). His shoulder belt is worn over the wrong shoulder.

I can see your reasoning t100 and concede that it is odd both that he has the pouch belt over the wrong shoulder and also that he has the sword belt normally worn over a scarlet tunic over a darker and different jacket. However, I do not think it is a Rifle Green jacket and I believe it is a dark blue Patrol Jacket for cavalry. Patrol jackets were deliberately loose for the cavalry as they were specifically designed to be worn over stable jackets. It might be that this photo was taken at the time the regiment was re-formed and then almost immediately part of the merger as recorded above and that the only common jacket to achieve a 'regimental 'uniformity' was the generic Patrol pattern. When rank badges were worn on stable jackets they were not 'repeated' on the Patrol Jacket according to regulations.

[Stuart_Bates]

According to Carman the unit adopted a black leather helmet after the Crimean War but he also says that the plume was red and white. The title of Lothians and Berwickshire Yeomanry Cavalry was indeed introduced in 1888 together with the new white metal helmet, but Carman also says that the plume was white for all troopers and red for the band.

I am familiar with the scarlet uniform and have no explanation for the one in the photo, except that what Frogsmile has just posted may be the case. This always assuming that it is the L & B Yeomanry.

Stuart

Lothian & Berwickshire Yeomanry.jpg (31.33 KiB) Viewed 1495 times

[t100]

I really don't think this is a patrol jacket. Pretty much all (braided) patrol jackets were edged around the front and skirts with broad flat braid (and fur for hussars) - instead this seems to be edged with black cord, exactly correct for a rifles tunic but not much else. The frogging also seems to be black cord rather than braid, also correct for a rifles tunic and not much else. The position of the loops across the chest, with the bottom one at the waist, is also correct for a rifles tunic. The bottom loop was almost always lower on patrol jackets. A patrol jacket would also normally have self material shoulder straps, not the shoulder knots seen here.

Almost all cavalry patrol jackets had pointed 'loops of mohair braid' decorating the chest (i.e. the rather odd variety with one end hanging loose); hussar style frogging was very rare for cavalry patrol jackets, although normal for infantry. Also, being dressed as Dragoons the East Lothian Yeomanry officers would most likely have worn frock coats, not having patrol jackets at all.

On the belts, I would suggest it is also rather odd for cavalry to be equipped with whistles, unless designated mounted rifles.

I concede that Yeomanry often went their own way, but I think it would be odd to be out of step in so many ways simultaneously.