10th Hussars in the Sudan

[GrantRCanada]

Another possibility occurred to me regarding the identification of the revolver held by this chap..... round-barreled versions of the Webley No. 5 (Army Express) revolver, which incorporates essentially the same rod ejection system as the Model 1873 Colt, look a lot like that model of Colt when only the cylinder and barrel area are visible -



However, on reflection I believe you are correct .... British officers are known to have used Single Action Colts, although such use was relatively uncommon. Although it is difficult to get a very clear "blow up" of the revolver, the front of the frame does look much more like that of a Colt ..... and his hand appears to be too high for the grip to have any "spur" on it. The apparent lack of a lanyard would tend to corroborate that identification.

[Jonathan]

However, here are details of the book where I found the photo:
THE VICTORIAN AND EDWARDIAN ARMY FROM OLD PHOTOGRAPHS (1975 - reprinted in 1984) by Batsford Ltd.

And it was in the collections of the India Office Library, now the British Library Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections.

[fantomark]

Thanks for this Colenso, very useful. Of course the Egyptian cavalry did use head ropes, etc. but do not appear to have passed many/any of them to the recently-arrived XRH, perhaps choosing to keep such easily-lost items for themselves. The Egyptians still needed to maintain their own squadron at Suakin of course and probably any spare items were jealously hoarded. The Egyptian Army ( EA ) supply system was a little stingy and the Egyptian cavalrymen were probably looking ahead to when the horses would be returned to them. As it was, most of the horses were returned within a matter of weeks.

The only good image that I have of an EA cavalryman of 1884 is from the Illustrated London News and it presents the South end of a North-bound horse so there is little to see of the saddle! I can send it to you for your archives, Marco, if you like?

By the way, I don't know if I would be too quick to dismiss the wearing of the spike on the FS Helmet of the XRH at the Second Battle of El-Teb on 29 Feb. 1884. The Melton Prior sketches of the Xth that appear on Page 276 of the ILN of 22 March 1884 distinctly show the spike being worn by all ranks of the regiment.

Just as an aside, over 200 Egyptian soldiers also fought at both El-Teb and Tamaai. They came primarily from the Egyptian Camel Corps and the 3rd Battery, Egyptian Artillery and I can categorically state that none of them wore a spike in their tarboush!

Cheers,

Mark

Ciao!

Yes, Mark!

I do have the Melton Prior sketches of the Xth you mentioned.
In fact most artistic impressions of the Regiment in the 1884 Sudan campaign show the spiked, uncovered helmet (including Giles and Norie- see pic attached), and this has aroused a brisk debate in the model soldiers community as to the accuracy of some award winning figures and wargame figures .

Personally i tend to take an apparently contradictory view about historical accuracy.

When any photographic evidence is available, I tend to give this priority over even the best artistic impressions.
In this case the only know photo (to me at least!) of a 10th RH in the Sudan clearly show the covered helmet with no spike.
In addition the same helmet configuration is shown in all phots of the Regiment in India and Afghanistan. and since the Regiment had arrived in the Sudan directly from India in their Indian uniform and kit , I am inclined to think that no spikes were worn, and helmets were supplied with a khaki cover.
Attached is another pic. of the 10th in Afghanistan at Gandamak in May 1879. On this occasion blue frocks were worn in place of the khaki ones , but as can be clearly seen helmets were khaki covered and with no spike.

This said I still believe some artistic licence in painting , and in toy or even model soldiers can be legitimate even if contradicted by historical evidence (within the boundaries of common sense, of course - so please Mark: no spiked tarbooshes on any of your EA figures!)
So Prior and the other Victorian artists (as well as present day figure makers and painters) who obvioulsy like the spiked helmet are fully justified to me .

Cheers!

marco

[fantomark]

Personally, I believe that one of the best renditions of an officer of the 10th (captioned as Afghanistan 1879, but as per the photo I posted at the beginning of this thread ,also good for the Sudan to me ) is the attached psotcard from Alice Baker,

Cheers!

Marco

[fantomark]

HI, Grant!

Yes you are right !
It definitely looks like a Colt SA!

As to the Lanyard ring, well this was available "on request" and for a small extra charge for Remington Revolvers and maybe then for Colts as well!

Attached is a plate form Remington 1887 price list: as you can see extra charge for a "ring in butt" on their New Model Army Revolver was 50 cents!

Ciao for now!!

Marco

[GrantRCanada]

Hi Marco:

Here is a page from a Remington catalogue showing that model, also with lanyard ring option:



As an active Cowboy Action Shooter, I regularly use a pair of Model 1875 Remington revolvers. I have always liked the look of the lanyard ring on them, but to my knowledge no manufacturer of the modern reproductions has ever offered that model with a lnayard ring .... and that despite my impression that a very many of them were purchased with a ring fitted. (I base that on the significant number of originals I have seen in photographs sporting lanyard rings.)

At any rate, since reproductions of the Model 1890 Remington revolver are made with lanyard rings, I went to the trouble of ordering the "spare parts" and fitted them to my 1875's -



Here is a circular or catalogue page from Colt's London Agency, regarding the Colt single action revolver, which was most often sold by them chambered for .455 or .450 Eley:

[fantomark]

HI Garnt!

Congratulations for your twin babies !!

Unfortunately I have no original Remington Army , though I have the Uberti replica , that I regularly use at our shooting competitions.
I purchased all of my Old West shooters directly from the Uberti factory ( now a subsidiary of Beretta ) , and was threfore able to arrange for a good degree of customizing when required , including the Lanyard ring on a S&W New Model N°3 (called by Uberti "Frontier") - I will send you a pic when I next take it out from its locker!

Keep well!

Ciao!

Marco

[Bosquoy]

Hello again;

There are some great comments on this thread and I wonder if, with our combined resources and intellects ( ! ) we might be able to pin down a more precise time and location for the photo depicting the 10th Hussar officer and his faithful steed?
A sugar cube, an apple and a scratch behind the ears to the person who provides the best answer!

Cheers,

Mark

I've only just joined the site and I'm quietly chuffed that my first contribution is to identify the man holding the revolver. I have a copy of that photograph in an album which belonged to my great grandfather, Arthur Hughes-Onslow who was serving with the 10th RH in the 1880s & 90s. Under the picture he has written

"Capt.McGee our riding master commonly called Barney in his Afghan Campaign kit. This photo was taken the other day. And is wonderfully good both of man and horse" Unfortunately he doesn't say when "the other day" was but the pictures on either side in the album are dated 1883. No record of where the picture was taken either, sadly.

Here's a jpeg of the original - the album is too big to fit in my scanner! I'll pass on the scratch behind the ear, I'm off sugar these days but I expect the apple in the post.

DSC_0037.jpg (47.2 KiB) Viewed 945 times

[Mark A. Reid]

Hello Bosquoy;

A hearty welcome to the Forum, I'm sure that you will enjoy it. And might I also congratulate you on such a magnificent entrance! Many thanks for sharing the information about your ancestor in the XRH and for the most interesting information on the " mystery figure " in the well-known photograph. You may have read that there was some discussion on the Forum as to the time and location of the photograph and you have now added more information to the discussion. Judging by the dates of the accompanying images, I would tend to think that this photo was not taken in the Sudan, possibly not even India, but I'm sure that others will have their opinions as well

I don't know how an apple would fare in the postal system but let me shake your fetlock in congratulation!

Cheers,

Mark

[fantomark]

Thanks for solving the mistery, Busquoy!

And congratulations wor the spectacular album in your possession!
It makes me green with envy!!

Though the was been taken in Afghanistan and not in the Sudan, according to all accounts uniforms were virtually identical, so explain teh confusion in interpretation in modern books! (the was no VWF at the time of publishing )

Also, the Afghan setting perfectly explains the British (as opposed to Egyptian) Horse furniture! So everything now falls into place!

As to the revolver , quite a few Colt 1873 SA ended up in British hands as private purchase revolvers, and quite probably this chap also had his one with him in the Sudan the following year!



Ciao!

Marco

[Bosquoy]

I'm glad to help ensure Barney gets due recognition at last.

There are a number of other interesting picture in the album which I'll post somewhere once I can find a scanner that'll cope with them. Suggestions as to the best place to post them would be appreciated!