Afghanistan 1878-1880 92nd Highlanders

[Goodie]

Does anyone have any information on the 92nd Highlanders who served in Afghanistan 1878-1880? Mr great granduncle had served in Afghanistan 1878-1880 and qualified for the Afghanistan Medal with clasps Charasia, Kabul & Kandahar and the Kabul to Kandahar Star. We do not know what has happened to these medals which we would have liked to have in the family. Does anyone know how to locate these lost medals?

Sgt Fraser was killed at Majuba Mountain 28 Feb 1881 and no medals were issued for the 1st Boer War because it was a disastrous defeat for the British.

Interested to hear from anyone.

Thank you
Regards
Maggie

[Mark]

Hi Maggie

As with many lost family medals they were most likely either destroyed or sold off at some point. Finding medals is an almost impossible task and can be very frustrating. That said I have personally renuited 3 sets of medals in the past 2 years and reunited 2 other sets with the recipient's families so it does happen - albeit rare.

You might also want to ask the members over on the British Medal Forum - not all members here collect or have an interest in medals but the guys and gals on the BMF of course do. Their web site address is: http://www.britishmedalforum.com

Good luck and do let us know if you ever find them.

Mark

[Jim Murray]

Maggie, I log Victorian medals that I see to the 92nd and have not seen Sgt Fraser's medals. You may be aware that he is photographed with the other serving Sergeants in a group photo in Afghanistan which is in the second volume of the regimental history "The Life of a Regiment" This volume covers the period 1816-1898 and might be worth acquiring if you are interested in learning what the regiment was doing at the time. His regimental number was 2130.

I have a few medals to the 92nd and this link has a page on one of the Sgts and there is a scan of the photo. Sgt Fraser is in the front row second from the left in the group photo (not the close up on the page).

http://www.britishmedals.us/collections ... onald.html

If you tell me what your email address is, I will send you a scan (enlarged somewhat)

The regimental museum has dozens of Afghan pairs in its collection. It might be worth asking them if they have Sgt Fraser's medals

Jim

[paul kennedy]

Jim,
Is 2015 Lance sgt. John Lawrie in the photo? I have his medal with no clasps, as he died Oct. 5, 1879.
Thank you,
Paul Kennedy

[Jim Murray]

Unfortunately no Paul

Jim

[rwmillar]

I am researching a soldier in the 92nd Highlanders ( Cabul Field Force ) who came from my home village of Glassford in S. Lanarkshire. His name is John Wilson. A local newspaper received a letter dated 25th May 1880 from a Sergeant-Major Ross of that regiment saying that Staff-Sergeant Wilson had had the Victoria Cross conferred on him for his gallantry and that General Roberts had presented him with a gold watch.
I am pursuing this research from various directions, so far without much success, via the regimental records, medal records, family connections and war graves. I think the John Wilson I am researching was born in 1851. I understand that the 92nd was sent to S. Africa after duty in Afghanistan.
If anyone has any relevant information or can suggest further sources of information I would be much obliged.
Bob Millar

[DavidB]

I am researching a soldier in the 92nd Highlanders ( Cabul Field Force ) who came from my home village of Glassford in S. Lanarkshire. His name is John Wilson. A local newspaper received a letter dated 25th May 1880 from a Sergeant-Major Ross of that regiment saying that Staff-Sergeant Wilson had had the Victoria Cross conferred on him for his gallantry and that General Roberts had presented him with a gold watch.
I am pursuing this research from various directions, so far without much success, via the regimental records, medal records, family connections and war graves. I think the John Wilson I am researching was born in 1851. I understand that the 92nd was sent to S. Africa after duty in Afghanistan.

He didn't I'm afraid. No-one by that name on the VC register. Can you tell us more, what exactly does the newspaper article say?

[rwmillar]

I am researching a soldier in the 92nd Highlanders ( Cabul Field Force ) who came from my home village of Glassford in S. Lanarkshire. His name is John Wilson. A local newspaper received a letter dated 25th May 1880 from a Sergeant-Major Ross of that regiment saying that Staff-Sergeant Wilson had had the Victoria Cross conferred on him for his gallantry and that General Roberts had presented him with a gold watch.
I am pursuing this research from various directions, so far without much success, via the regimental records, medal records, family connections and war graves. I think the John Wilson I am researching was born in 1851. I understand that the 92nd was sent to S. Africa after duty in Afghanistan.

He didn't I'm afraid. No-one by that name on the VC register. Can you tell us more, what exactly does the newspaper article say?

Hello David,
Yes I have checked the list of published VCs. However there must have been some basis to the report which I have verified in the Hamilton Advertiser dated July 24th 1880. I quote:-

A Glassford Man Winning the Victoria Cross

In a letter dated Cabul Field Force, India, May 25, 1880, Sergeant-major Ross, 92nd Highlanders, informs us that Staff-Sergeant John Wilson of the same regiment, a native of Glassford, has had the Victoria Cross conferred upon him for gallantry, and been presented by General Roberts with a gold watch. Our correspondent says that Sergeant Wilson is a good and faithful servant of his Queen and country, and although it is but one year and five months since he entered the service, is a hardy and intelligent soldier, endued with a love of the kilt, and a desire to maintain the glory of his native land. Rightly enough, Sergeant-Major Ross thinks Wilson's father and friends in Glassford have reason to feel proud of their "sodger laddie".
The action in which he won this highest distinction of a British soldier, was his first at Cabul, and, adds our correspondent, "you should have seen him and his men how coolly they took it , as, volley firing in the trenches, they received the word of command from the only officer that was left them, and who did his duty well till the last, and, like a brave British Soldier and hero, died"

There follows a brief explanation of the reasons why Britain is in Afghanistan.

My conclusion is that either this is a hoax or Staff-Sergeant Wilson was awarded the VC and for whatever reason and his award has not been transmitted to the relevant authorities. Can anyone confirm that gold watches were awarded on these occasions? Also were 'dispatches' kept at this time and if so who would hold these? What happened to those who were killed in this war? Where were they buried?
Bob Millar

[swordcollector1]

Shadbolt's history of the campaign has plenty of info on the 92nd, and several NCOs are mentioned by name for gallantry (the DCM, for example). However, Wilson gets no mention. Perhaps the letter writer heard that a sergeant in another company had won an award and assumed it was Wilson?

The gold watch sounds like it was a personal award by Roberts. The VC came with a pension, but I don't think timepieces were ever a part of the process!

John

[DavidB]

Bob,
The story told in that article doesn't seem to add up to me.

......and although it is but one year and five months since he entered the service....

This is asking us to believe that he'd been in the army for just 17 months but was already a senior NCO. Seems suspicious to me.

.....and, like a brave British Soldier and hero, died

This appears to be telling us he was KIA. Yet can't see him on the casualty roll either.

A medal roll lookup would help you to at least confirm he's not a figment of someone's imagination!

[swordcollector1]

.....and, like a brave British Soldier and hero, died

This appears to be telling us he was KIA. Yet can't see him on the casualty roll either.

I read it that it was "the only officer that was left them" who died a hero, but on re-reading I think the quote is ambiguous!

John

[Jim Murray]

Just to add to this, there are 4 John Wilsons on the medal roll (3 privates and one lance cpl)
It may be difficult to distinguish one from another.

Jim

[rwmillar]

Bob,
The story told in that article doesn't seem to add up to me.

......and although it is but one year and five months since he entered the service....

This is asking us to believe that he'd been in the army for just 17 months but was already a senior NCO. Seems suspicious to me.

.....and, like a brave British Soldier and hero, died

This appears to be telling us he was KIA. Yet can't see him on the casualty roll either.

A medal roll lookup would help you to at least confirm he's not a figment of someone's imagination!

David,
The Regimental museum echoed your thoughts re shortness of service but there were two things which might explain it. a) If my guess is correct, John was 29 at the time and therefore not an inexperienced person and b) if there were considerable casualties in the months leading up to this incident, promotion might well be rapid. Do you know if this was the case?

My reading of the article was that it was not John who died in the incident. Bob

[DavidB]

My reading of the article was that it was not John who died in the incident. Bob

Reading it again, I accept it's an ambiguous statement. I think what led me to my interpretation was where you said earlier that one of the ways you were trying to pursue him was via war graves.

The Regimental museum echoed your thoughts re shortness of service but there were two things which might explain it. a) If my guess is correct, John was 29 at the time and therefore not an inexperienced person and b) if there were considerable casualties in the months leading up to this incident, promotion might well be rapid. Do you know if this was the case?
He was certainly inexperienced as a soldier and that's what counts surely?
Most of the 92nd's casualties came after May 1880 (the date in the article), there were only a dozen or so other ranks KIA before that date.

The more general point I'd make though is that even if one suspicious statement in the article can be explained away or considered an error, when there are 3 (at least) then their combined weight is much harder to explain.
- very short length of service to be a senior NCO
- apparently awarded the VC, yet no evidence of any gallantry award for him, let alone the VC
- apparently a senior NCO, but Jim confirmed a few posts ago that the 4 men of the right name in the regiment were 3 privates and 1 lance-cpl. And that's from the medal roll of the same campaign. A far cry from a senior NCO.
- apparently an officer was killed in the incident (by our now reading) yet the only officer of the 92nd KIA in the campaign was Lieut Forbes in Dec 1879.

In short, nothing as yet in the article has been independently confirmed. My inclination is to dismiss the whole thing.

[rwmillar]

My reading of the article was that it was not John who died in the incident. Bob

Reading it again, I accept it's an ambiguous statement. I think what led me to my interpretation was where you said earlier that one of the ways you were trying to pursue him was via war graves.

The Regimental museum echoed your thoughts re shortness of service but there were two things which might explain it. a) If my guess is correct, John was 29 at the time and therefore not an inexperienced person and b) if there were considerable casualties in the months leading up to this incident, promotion might well be rapid. Do you know if this was the case?
He was certainly inexperienced as a soldier and that's what counts surely?
Most of the 92nd's casualties came after May 1880 (the date in the article), there were only a dozen or so other ranks KIA before that date.

The more general point I'd make though is that even if one suspicious statement in the article can be explained away or considered an error, when there are 3 (at least) then their combined weight is much harder to explain.
- very short length of service to be a senior NCO

- apparently awarded the VC, yet no evidence of any gallantry award for him, let alone the VC
- apparently a senior NCO, but Jim confirmed a few posts ago that the 4 men of the right name in the regiment were 3 privates and 1 lance-cpl. And that's from the medal roll of the same campaign. A far cry from a senior NCO.
- apparently an officer was killed in the incident (by our now reading) yet the only officer of the 92nd KIA in the campaign was Lieut Forbes in Dec 1879.

In short, nothing as yet in the article has been independently confirmed. My inclination is to dismiss the whole thing.

The Regimental museum confirms that a Sergeant Major Ross was the equivalent of the RSM at that time. Presumably he was either involved in sending the letter to the press or his name ( and General Roberts ) was used without his permission. Presumably if it was used in the making of false claims without his permission it would be a fairly serious disciplinary matter.
Bob