Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

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Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby tse5a » 27 Jun 2017 15:43

Good Morning. Does anyone know if Canadian Militia Helmet Plates for the foreign service/ universal pattern helmets have ever been reproduced? We are looking for a few. Thank you
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby QSAMIKE » 27 Jun 2017 20:16

Take a look right here....... Something similar.......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/White-Six-Panel ... SwCmZZUfHR

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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby QSAMIKE » 27 Jun 2017 20:19

QSAMIKE wrote:Take a look right here....... Something similar.......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/White-Six-Panel ... SwCmZZUfHR

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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby tse5a » 29 Jun 2017 14:48

Thank you Mike. I edited my message. I should have typed reproduced. I bet that helmet is going to go for a chunk of change.
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby GrantRCanada » 03 Jul 2017 06:35

Are you looking for a specific unit's helmet plate (of which there were many) or for a generic "General Service" pattern? Also, would it be for use on the white helmet, or on the khaki-covered helmet as worn by Canadian infantry on foreign service during the 2nd Anglo-Boer War?

I cannot recall ever having seen anything like the plate mounted on the helmet in the above eBay listing, not does anything like it appear in "Canadian Militia Badges Pre-1914" by Daniel Mazeas.

Perhaps Mike can clarify, but the two photos he posted above are what I understand to be "cap badges" (such as would be worn on various other types of head-dress (i.e. glengarry caps, field service caps, etc.) but not usually on the universal pattern helmet. They are relatively small - i.e. in the order of 2" to 2.5" high. (That said, the maple leaf badge shown was worn as the primary head-dress badge by the Canadian Boer War contingents, including on the khaki cover of the helmet (albeit on the side of the helmet.)

Image

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On the other hand, the true helmet plate, such as would be affixed to the front of the helmet, was a considerably larger badge - in the order of 5" high and 4.25" wide. Many Battalions had their own unit-specific plate, but there were also several variants of general Canada Militia helmet plates - oak, laurel and maple leaf wreath versions are known - which were worn either with a beaver device in the center void or the Battalion number.

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So far as I am aware, there is no readily available reproduction of a Canada Militia helmet plate. I have recently acquired the one shown on the right in the above composite image, and have been considering making a silicone mould of it so that I can cast one or more resin copies, for my own use. I have previously done this with a mould made from an original Victorian Regiment of Canadian Artillery helmet plate, for use by the 1885 (North West Rebellion-era) artillery group to which I belong -

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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Spañiard » 06 Jul 2017 19:23

Hi just got back last night, read both posts before leaving, was somewhat confused by the question and response..."Does anyone know if Canadian Militia Helmet Plates for the foreign service/universal pattern helmets have ever been reproduced?"

The only Canadian foreign service pre FWW was as mentioned by Mr. Grant...SSAW...SABW, etc., while the helmet was only worn by 2nd ss Bn.RCRI, with the Khaki cover and the maple-leaf cap-badge as shown by Mr. GRC., noted not all RCR wore that same hat as shown in his 1st photo.

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2nd SS Bn. RCRI Drill on deck, SS Sardinian, South African War, Nov. 1899.


Confirming GrantsRCanada's argument...On Christmas Day “Tommy Atkins,” ordered the Canadian and three British nurses transferred, to entrain and proceed 6 miles away to No.3 General Hospital at Rondebosch Cape Town, a facility with 600 beds, for other ranks. The sisters were stationed for six months in the enteric fever ward. The Sisters experienced adventures of camp life, chilling nights and hot midsummer sun, with powerful rain, wind, and sandstorms, pestered by snakes and scorpion. They “eagerly searched out the wearers of the Maple Leaf badge, and deemed it a great privilege to find them our own special patients.” According to Pope; “service there including medical and surgical cases of our own and the Portland hospital, we had but thirty deaths. But here at the base we always had good air, plenty of good water, with an abundance of fresh milk, eggs, and ice. The general hospital fare was excellent, and added to this we received daily quantities of fruit and dainties sent by the Red Cross Committee of the Colony, besides any medical comforts from England.”
The above derives from Lt. Pope Canadian Head Nursing Sister, official militia submitted report.

It's my understanding no other contingent, wore the helmet in the South African veldt.


C.U.

.
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Waggoner » 06 Jul 2017 19:33

I suspect the Canadian militia officers on the Nile expedition in 1885 wore some form of a pith helmet. If so, would they have worns a GS plate or their regimental ones?

All the best,

Gary
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Spañiard » 06 Jul 2017 19:47

Waggoner wrote:I suspect the Canadian militia officers on the Nile expedition in 1885 wore some form of a pith helmet. If so, would they have worns a GS plate or their regimental ones?

All the best,

Gary


It's my understanding the Nile Expedition 1885, post 1st Anglo-Boer War Dec. 1880 until 23 Mar. 1881 Canada's contrabution was a civilian op...No Canadian Government, Militia connection...

Quote DHH 2........ The volunteers going to Africa would wear no uniforms, bear no arms and take no part in the ... travelling by train and steamer, passed Luxor and Aswan, to finally reach the first cataract.


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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Waggoner » 07 Jul 2017 00:28

As you can see from this article - https://legionmagazine.com/en/2004/01/v ... -the-nile/ - a number of Canadian militia accompanied the expedition in command and support roles.

All the best,

Gary
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Mark A. Reid » 07 Jul 2017 01:28

Thanks Gary, an article that provides a good overview of the campaign from the perspective of the Canadian Voyageurs.

As Spaniard points out, it was a civilian effort but the men were contractors of the War Office and there were representatives from various Canadian Militia regiments. The Voyageurs were also issued with uniforms and this has been covered elsewhere in the Forum. As I recall, they received slouch hats and pith helmets as well as grey work suits and blue shirts. The uniform of one of the officers, Major Denison, is held by The Canadian War Museum in Ottawa and consists of a standard FS helmet with khaki cover & puggaree, a privately-tailored khaki tunic, with multifarious pockets, Sam Browne with two braces and a large collection of pouches, mess tins, haversack, etc. Hs tin trunk and souvenir Sudanese sword in crocodile scabbard have also survived as I recall.

Cheers,

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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Spañiard » 08 Jul 2017 00:53

Waggoner wrote:As you can see from this article - https://legionmagazine.com/en/2004/01/v ... -the-nile/ - a number of Canadian militia accompanied the expedition in command and support roles.

All the best,

Gary


Hi Mr. Gary, THK U kindly for the link...Kind of vague, etc,...True "some" Canadian militia officers accompanied the expedition in command and support roles, or they believed this would be the case, while holding their Canadian rank. Once landed in Egypt they got one heck of a realty check, by British High Brass...officers and the War Office. A British 18yr old privet, Lt. was giving orders to a Canadian Lt.-Col.

Some wore the helmet, etc, while the work uniform was issued with nada military...I say again; just a work uniform, what ever add-ons by the 3 independent Canadian Boatmen contingent...Aboriginal, French, and English.

Note the term "Canadian" is not a proper representation of Canada's Civilian Contingent requested by the British War Office...They officially requested "Aboriginal Boatmen," only. The English were quite T-Off about that.....

Just like the Trent Affair, the Nile Expedition played out in the Canadian and British press.


C.U.


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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Spañiard » 08 Jul 2017 01:31

Mark A. Reid wrote:Thanks Gary, an article that provides a good overview of the campaign from the perspective of the Canadian Voyageurs.

As Spaniard points out, it was a civilian effort but the men were contractors of the War Office and there were representatives from various Canadian Militia regiments. The Voyageurs were also issued with uniforms and this has been covered elsewhere in the Forum. As I recall, they received slouch hats and pith helmets as well as grey work suits and blue shirts. The uniform of one of the officers, Major Denison, is held by The Canadian War Museum in Ottawa and consists of a standard FS helmet with khaki cover & puggaree, a privately-tailored khaki tunic, with multifarious pockets, Sam Browne with two braces and a large collection of pouches, mess tins, haversack, etc. Hs tin trunk and souvenir Sudanese sword in crocodile scabbard have also survived as I recall.

Cheers,

Mark


THK U for elaborating Mr. Reid...I will need too look at olden day notes, and a score of prime source accounts of the day on this work uniform, issued by the British Army. The Canadian officers sent, were all civilians, no better then the Indians, and treated that way by British officers...Well documented. Although after the fact the British gave higher praise too French and Aboriginals, as the Canadian Anglo's were problematic, complainers, etc, note all this played-out in the Canadian and British press...

The below is well sourced, etc.,

To Represent the Country in Egypt: Aboriginality, Britishness, Anglophone Canadian Identities, and the Nile Voyageur Contingent, 1884–1885 ANTHONY P. MICHEL*. 2006

[PDF]To Represent the Country in Egypt: Aboriginality, Britishness ...http://hssh.journals.yorku.ca/index.php ... /4211/3409

HUNDREDS OF Montrealers assembled on September 13, 1884, to witness the departure of the first Canadian contingent to participate in an overseas imperial campaign. Friends and family of river pilots from the Mohawk community of Kahnawake gathered to bid farewell as their men prepared to board the Atlantic steamer, the Ocean King. Already on board were 90 men from Manitoba. One-third of the Manitoba group were Saulteaux Ojibway, Swampy Cree, and Métis from the St. Peter’s band near Selkirk; a third were experienced river navigators from various points in the Northwest. The rest of the Manitobans were adventure-seeking bank tellers, legal clerks, and other Winnipeg professionals. The largest segment of the contingent were shantymen from the Ottawa valley, both anglophones and francophones, who arrived by train in various states of inebriation. Workmen scrambled to finish loading supplies on board and carpenters put the finishing touches on bunks as this hurriedly recruited assemblage prepared to depart. After a stop in Trois Rivières to pick up one more group of bûcherons, the contingent halted for an inspection by Governor General Lord Lansdowne in Quebec City before proceeding to Egypt.

These civilian boatmen were to play an integral role in the British government’s Nile expedition, which attempted to rescue General Charles Gordon, besieged in Khartoum by the armies of the Mahdi. “Many of the best informed” in London, Canadians read, considered this campaign “by far the gravest undertaking in which Britain has embarked in any of her ‘little wars’.” The exotic locale, the popularity of the tragic-heroic figure Gordon, rising imperial sentiments, and the dramatic religious dimensions of a “False Prophet” leading a holy war all ensured that the campaign was closely followed by newspapers throughout the Empire. In Canada, special attention was given to the boatmen, or the “Nile Voyageurs” as they were called. Never before had the British military called for a contingent of any sort from a settler colony. The stakes were high in terms of national honour and reputation. This unprecedented expedition provides an instructive case study in the contending and emerging narratives of cultural identity in Victorian Canada. The novelty of a Canadian contingent serving overseas, the multi-ethnic nature of the group, the prestige of an imperial military campaign, and the prominent role of Aboriginal men all provided an opportunity for explicit public discussion on the nature of Canadian identity and national representation. Here, I focus on questions of identity raised by anglophone European-.........

Only C. P. Stacey and Roy MacLaren have analysed the place of the Nile Voyageurs in Canadian history. Stacey edited and published a large collection of archival records and wrote two articles that considered the expedition in the context of Canada’s defence and external affairs policies. By such criteria, Stacey concluded that the Nile Expedition was admittedly of minor historical significance since the voyageurs were civilians, recruitment was organized by the Governor General, and the costs were assumed by the British government. MacLaren, in his book Canadians on the Nile, argued that the Nile expedition was one of several military conflicts that helped forge a distinctive Canadian identity: a step on the road from colony to nation. The voyageurs apparently reflected the appearance of an “essential Canadian character” and a “breed of men the new world produced”. MacLaren claimed that, because “Canadians for the first time served abroad”, this allowed them to “realize better their own nature” and revealed to themselves and others that “the genus Canadenses had begun to appear on the international scene”. Much is to be gained by re-examining this episode in light of recent studies on culture, identity, and imperialism. Recent scholarship on imperialism....

The Raising and Departure of the Nile Voyageur Contingent...The period of greatest government activity and public interest in the Nile voyageurs occurred between the announcement of recruitment in late August 1884 and the departure of the men in September. Government records and newspaper coverage reflected both the intense effort required to organize the group in just three weeks and the public fascination with this unprecedented situation.

“The white man is preferable to the Indian”...Within an hour of receiving the initial request, Governor General Lansdowne wrote to Sir John A. Macdonald, suggesting that Melgund “not lose a moment in putting himself in communication with the agents for these Indian settlements”. But after Melgund met with Macdonald, who was both Prime Minister and Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs, the Governor General abandoned this idea, having been informed that times had changed since 1870. He cabled the Colonial Office to state that raftsmen from the province of Quebec and from the Ottawa Valley “would be preferable to Indian boatmen”. The following day, on August 22, Lansdowne met with agents from the major Quebec lumber firms, while Melgund boarded a train to Ottawa to arrange similar meetings there.

The decision to use shantymen instead of Aboriginal voyageurs was reinforced by meetings with leading Canadian businessmen. One wrote to Melgund in Ottawa after his Quebec City discussions with Lansdowne, summarizing the views of his colleagues and affirming that “the white man would be more desirable for the task in question than the red man”.25 The following day, Lansdowne wrote to Lord Derby at the Colonial Office to justify the change of plans. He noted that the request implied a preference for Natives, since “the settlements mentioned by Your Lordship” were “inhabited by Indians”.

Canadians officials, wrote Lansdowne, informed him that “the freighting business formerly carried on by these people has greatly declined of late and that the best class of men” for river navigation were the raftsmen of the lumber industry. It was “unwise to restrict the selection” to the Iroquois............

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Canadian voyageurs in front of the Parliament Buildings, detail from "Canadian Nile Contingent" 1884.
The person with the long beard in center of photo believe is Lieut.-Col. W.N. Kennedy C.O. 90th Battalion Winnipeg Rifles, M.D. No. 10. with other Canadian Militia officers, all in civilian dress. Note militia Doctors, Nursing Sisters, accompanied Canada's civilian contingent.

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Steamboat captains from the Ottawa River who served with the Canadian Nile Contingent, 1884.

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Detail from a composite photograph entitled "Canadian Nile Contingent" 1885.

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Canadian Nile Contingent 1884 Ottawa Ont.


From LAC records...War Office 100 consists of 397 volumes recording the names of officers and men entitled to campaign medals and clasps between 1793 and 1912. The National Archives has copied extracts from the rolls of the medical staff, nursing sisters and Canadian Voyageur Contingent who participated in the Egypt and Sudan campaigns of 1884-1885. The microfilmed originals are available on microfilm reels B-1820. The transcripts, volume 68, are available on microfilm reel C-12585. http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_arch ... 652,536439

I still stand firm, they, including "Canadian Officers" were all employed as civilian boatmen, labors, by the British War Office, with no militia uniform or rank...records, DHH 2, etc., confirm the latter.


C.U.


.
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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby GrantRCanada » 10 Jul 2017 19:56

Perhaps Company of Military Historians Plate #137 and its related text will contribute to the discussion ...

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Re: Canadian Militia Helmet Plate

Postby Spañiard » 11 Jul 2017 02:47

GrantRCanada wrote:Perhaps Company of Military Historians Plate #137 and its related text will contribute to the discussion ...


THK U Kindly...was looking have other stuff??...It certainly does...

The Toronto Daily Mail, 1st Nov. 1884.
The Egyptian Campaign. A Canadian Voyageur Drowned In The Nile.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 8033&hl=en



C.U.
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